A broader Spectrum

[ladyknite]

yup the company i buy from also sells there.

 

[beardielover17]

just a update
they have pretty serious microscopes on ebay for not too bad prices but im not sure if there are brands better than others lol

thats actually where i got my microscope from and its the same exact one thats on beautiful dragons but i got it even cheaper

 

[ladyknite]

I've actually got some necropsy pics from a couple of months ago performed on a female dragon that simply would not stop laying eggs. Her owner recorded she laid monthly for the last 13 months.
They're graphic..........but noone is opposed..........I'll be glad to post them.

I do warn you......they are explicit.

 

[beardielover17]

I've actually got some necropsy pics from a couple of months ago performed on a female dragon that simply would not stop laying eggs. Her owner recorded she laid monthly for the last 13 months.
They're graphic..........but noone is opposed..........I'll be glad to post them.

I do warn you......they are explicit.

i would love to see them! nature isnt always beautiful...people should realize that lol if anything email them to me please

 

[crypticdragons]

i couldnt imagine folks having a problem (provided you have a title that states its explicit photos of a beraded dragon autopsy)

but you may want to run it by the admin (Renee) and see what she says

 

[ladyknite]

I'll wait for the majority to reply. But I'll email them to you Candice

 

[beardielover17]

thanx gina!

 

[zebraflavencs]

Add me to that emailing please ,Gina.
Janie.

 

[ladyknite]

After making sure it was ok with admin, I decided to go ahead and post my pics. I hope they don't offend anyone........

The first is a diagram photo and the second is the actual procedure

 

[TheVirus]

The beardie in the first pic looks like he has a hook for an arm

Janie,

I wasn't saying what Gina does is wrong. I think its great. I was just commenting on another, over looked aspect of husbandry.

Gina,

You should read some Monitor Lizard forums. What I like about those forums is the amount of long term keepers and Phd's that frequent them. Whats great about that is you get info from people who not only study reptiles in the wild, but apply captive husbandry techniques. Theres also no real competition when comes to selling the animals so breeders can tell people how they really care for their charges. Most people on those forums also keep other reptiles, so pretty much every specie is discussed. PM me if you want the names of a few sites. I could give you the names of a few herpetologists too, if you want to discuss your findings.

 

[Red Ink AUS]

Francis....you guys have the opportunity to explore to examine "cause and effect" in nature there. Can you pick out anything in husbandry that has a direct negative impact? For example, the old substrate issue..........which i feel is honestly a personal choice..........yet many want to refer back to nature for that solution. Do you feel that those circumstances can exist in captivity? OR can we only mimic certain aspects, and fall short on others?

Gina, it's really hard to pin point cause and effect in nature as there factors that affect it are infinite out there. The main thing that i have personally observed in keeping specimens in a natural state i.e. outdoors vs enclosures. Is the natural UV rays of the sun and the temps which i reckon is the key factor in captive husbandry. My outdoor pit was not "tiled", it wasn't sand either, just regular backyard dirt. I had a P.barbata there for about 7 years and it thrived in the conditions. Not only did i have it out there with no more special care other than food but it also peacefully cohabited with different species (BTS trio).

The problem with recreating a micro environment in a 4x2x2 enclosure is that falls very short of the real thing. A lot of people when using naturalistic substrate always go back to the argument of "it's what they live on in the wild". To that i say yes and no, yes they live on particle substrate, no playsand or any sand out there is not the same as Australian Terra as unless it is actually Australian sand. A lot of people see landscape pictures of the outback on the internet and think that must be what the outback looks like it has sand therefore the dragons live on sand. Australia is a "HUGE" place what people see is a snap shot of a place they probably have never been to and decided to make conclusions about it. As an example it would be no different from me knowing that grizzly bears are naturally found in North America then seeing pictures of Florida Keys and assuming that it's in America therefore there must be Grizzlies there. (Bit of an off topic rant i know but I feel it does justify my point).

Now going back to the topic of the 4x2x2 enclosure, yes you can use naturalistic items in an enclosure but for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. People have to remember that these creatures have built a symbiotic relationship with they environment honed over millions of years of evolution. When you put a naturalistic factor in a micro environment (what ever it is) you can't just emit other factors as that may have an adverse effect on your specimen. Which brings us back to cause and effect, i believe as an example if you use sand or particle substrates the codependent naturalistic factor in that is high temps and high UV to make it a success as that is what is successful out there in nature. In saying that high temps can lead to dehydration. So you mist, bathe, water bowl, but people need to stop and think who does that for the wild dragons when they encounter high temps? So if no one does that for them do they really need it? Do they simply dehydrate and die impacted by the natural particle substrate they are on? If that were true bearded dragons would have lost the "rat race" so to speak millions of years ago and be extinct.

As in my other post more is learned through observations to determine "cause and effect" but as i stated to do that properly you need absolute information which is rarely possible.

I kinda didn't really answer your questions did I? So in short "no" i don't think we can ever recreate naturalistic environments in captivity, we may come close but with each thing we put in there it needs constant "tweaking" so to speak as one factor will always affect another. There's no right or wrong answer if the dragons are thriving even though one persons husbandry practices are so far out left field it not funny, then they must be doing something right. It the same respect you could follow text books, caresheets and get your hands on every article known to man out there and the dragon still dies, then what went wrong?

Francis

 

[crypticdragons]

gina did that female die from egg binding or from some other complication brought on by laying so many clutches

 

[TheVirus]

In saying that high temps can lead to dehydration. So you mist, bathe, water bowl, but people need to stop and think who does that for the wild dragons when they encounter high temps? So if no one does that for them do they really need it? Do they simply dehydrate and die impacted by the natural particle substrate they are on? If that were true bearded dragons would have lost the "rat race" so to speak millions of years ago and be extinct.

Great observation Red.

I like it because it touches on how pieces of husbandry fit together like pieces of a puzzle. For instance, I can run basking temps of 130, 140, 170 and the only negative effect would be dehydration. In order to keep them hydrated, without ever bathing or misting them, is to offer humidity. The only way to offer a constant humidity, is through a substrate that holds humidity.

If I offer the high basking temps with low humidity and a particle substrate. I'll end up with a dehydrated and/or impacted dragon. If I offer lower basking temps and high humidity, I'll end up with a dragon with respiratory infection.

If I use high basking temp gradient, with a humidity gradient, with a deep burrowable substrate, in an enclosure that supports that kind of environment, and is offered in a way that the beardie understands.... I end up with an enclosure that allows for every basic life event. Its an enclosure that allows the animal to satisfy all its needs with in the enclosure. The animal never has to be removed from the environment to fulfill a need. Support only needs to be added to the enclosure (food, water).

Someone once talked about how nature pushes these animals in to marginal conditions. They end up living in the harshest conditions they can survive in. In captivity, we don't have to give them these harsh conditions (like bone dry)

 

[DragonMom]

:-X

 

[ladyknite]

DragonMom

Were these pics from ones that you did?

The second was my pic. It was note of the fiberous bulbous on the organ between my fingers.

Tim
I visit a few monitor forums. Raised a Nile...........oh boy. But I would definately appreciate the links. I'm always interested in different concepts, especially when people have tried new and different aspects of care than most talk about.
One of the biggest problems with the dragon breeders are that everyone stays so "secret" in their keeping, breeding and raising. Noone knows whats going on until its already here. Unless you're one of the few on the inside looking out. (i.e. 2006)


Francis

There's no right or wrong answer if the dragons are thriving even though one persons husbandry practices are so far out left field it not funny, then they must be doing something right. It the same respect you could follow text books, caresheets and get your hands on every article known to man out there and the dragon still dies, then what went wrong?

I have to agree. I've practiced many different forms of husbandry, and found that with each one, that "tweaking" you referred to was necessary depending on the base factors involved. However, I do have very strong feelings that many novice keepers reach for those "Left field" ways before ever really knowing the animal they keep, hence causing it's detriment. I guess, this is where i go back to my notes. Years and years of notes.

I have plans to come to Australia in 2011. I hoping to be able to experience some of that "real life stuff" and get the chance to see exactly how people practice this hobby where it originated. Maybe we can meet up.

Back to Tim

If I use high basking temp gradient, with a humidity gradient, with a deep burrowable substrate, in an enclosure that supports that kind of environment, and is offered in a way that the beardie understands.... I end up with an enclosure that allows for every basic life event. Its an enclosure that allows the animal to satisfy all its needs with in the enclosure. The animal never has to be removed from the environment to fulfill a need. Support only needs to be added to the enclosure (food, water). /quote]

Nice concept. Got ideas on that?

 

[DragonMom]

:-X

 

[crypticdragons]

i have asked Tim to illuminate some on his husbandry practices but he still hasnt sat down and typed it up. i think that there is so much involved in how he raises his dragons that he doesnt have time to type it all out. but one day he will im sure of it ;D (hint hint tim)

 

[zebraflavencs]

I can take a partial stab at that for him... since he is soooo busy lately
He does keep all his reptiles on particulate substrates, with higher humiditys than most suggest.
He also has higher temps involved. Now he and his father have done this for what now... 30 years give or take ? There is also the matter of the soil flora (aka bacteria) that has been well established to handle the fecals of these animals. I've thought quite some time, that eventually I might attempt this in one viv, say for some of the gecks, just as an experiment... Not there yet,but the thought intrigues me.
I know Tim will explain in muuuuuch deeper details... Just thought to start it out
Janie.

 

[ladyknite]

DragonMom
I think Monitors are special. I've kept a few Savannah's on a short term basis for re-homing and rehab, but never actually owned one myself. My Nile was pretty enthusiastic about his food. And he thought almost everything was food. I got him when he was just a baby, so it wasn't a handling issue with him, he just simply didn't take well to human interaction.
When his enclosure got to be as large as my bathroom, and probably the weight of a small van, I sent him to a zoo. At that point, he was too large to work with, I felt he was cramped, and in short.........I wanted more for him (not to mention I was running out of gloves to protect my fingers) So although it was hard to see him go, I did.



Janie, Brian, Tim
I've done particles, humidities and temps. I understand natural bacteria, and it's relation to environment. I'm curious as to the particular size of enclosure as well as the specifics of the different aforementioned environmental changes combined. I figure that is a very well studied combination of sorts and not just any mix will do.
However, with the number of animals I have, I would very much like to dupe it for my own research.

 

[zebraflavencs]

Once Tim graces us with his specific information, I think that this is a viable experiment, Gina.
Janie.