Hybrids? your thoughts...

[ladyknite]

Hey Francis,
Wish i had been around when this was posted. I'd have loved to got into the conversation a bit.

On a personal note, I believe that nature creates, destroys, evolves and handles it's own in every aspect of life and death. Dinosaurs once walked this earth, yet due to conditions outside their control (environmental) they are no longer here in that exact form. Some have been determined to have evolved from their larger cousins and still exist on earth today. This wasn't an act of man, but an act of nature. I believe that nature is passionate in it's creativity and gives the earth the means for every creature on it to survive, meagerly at times. I also believe that it's a formidable force, and not one I choose to muck with.

With that said, I don't care for the hybridization of any living creature. Purebred dogs were not originally "purebred". They came from Heinz 57 stock at one point. It was man that duplicated the process. Not nature. Nature made them with a weak link for a reason. It's natural selection. And again man has interferred. The dog, as nature intended it, was a carnivore. It hunted and killed. Today, dog food diets consists mostly of grains, which are carbs and made mostly of corn. I've never observed my spaniel dig up carrots from my garden when she was hungry. Humans don't consider anything but theirselves when they do these things. One issue seems to beget another...........or so nature dictates.

I do believe that money and ego have alot to do with it. But I think ignorance and the ability to see only what is it before you in black and white plays a larger part.

 

[crypticdragons]

To an extent id say both views are correct. It is a point of money and fame but it is also in human nature to need to be able to control "their" environment. The dog being a perfect example. We bent and twisted wild dogs into what they are today to fit our fancy. Some were bred to be small as lap dogs, others to hunt rodents, some were bred large to be used for taking down big game or as gaurds. Humans have an uncanny ability to look at something that is inherently beautiful and graceful and say "you know what i think i can make it better" when they cant we just make things worse.

 

[ladyknite]

i don't think that "it being in Human Nature" is an excuse to manipulate those things nature dicates to suit ones self. You are correct in man's need for control, but his evolutionary instinct is to conquer (to gain by force) and with that comes destruction. Looking back, man has made some terrible mistakes.
Tom mentioned 3 mile island. Hiroshima, Biochem warefare. Man doesn't want to control it.........he wants to destroy it.

well now that i sound like Jim Jones on the band wagon...................I'll shut up. lol

 

[crypticdragons]

The need to control and the need to conquer are quite similar trains of thought. And its a bridging of both that defines most. Its the need to manipulate, overpower, and bend the willpower of everything around our species to fit our needs that causes the problems lol. now that i sound like a crazy anti-forward progression speaker im going to get off my soap box and sit down quietly.

( I know i sound like i hate the human race but i dont just the behaviors that we adapted over the years lol)

 

[TheVirus]

I think you all are great, but I love morphs : ) Healthy ones anyway. They are so much fun. I've been knee deep in the hobby for some time now, and if it wasn't for morphs, I would not own any beardies.

We used to breed normals. You take a normal x a normal and you get tons of normals. Rinse, wash, repeat a ton of times and it gets boring. Especially when your not trying to make a living off of it. Now you take a hypo red and breed it to a red leather, and you get all different looking babies. Its fun for me! Why keep these things if its no fun (which my knobs are becoming increasingly not fun, by the way).

I bred Veiled Chameleons longer and through more generations than any other specie. I love veileds, but its not fun anymore. Its too easy. Throw some bugs in there and add water to the substrate. I want a challenge. I want excitement. And I want it in a small lizard that can't hurt me

Also, If I was to breed a vittaceps, with a henrylawsoni, and it makes an energetic, healthy captive, thats a blast to keep, then thats great! Thats what I'm looking for anyway. Fun. Something different. Its why I change my clothes and don't own ten of the same shirt. Its why I have a blackberry and don't send smoke signals

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

I didnt realize the bloodlines where so thin over here compared to Australia. It does make you stop and rethink things a bit. At least it makes Me rethink a bit.

 

[ladyknite]

surely Tom, you didn't think I exaggerated did you? *mwah* lol

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

Not at all Gina, it was your info that made Me dig a bit. Its almost sad how thin the blood lines are in the states. Would I even recognize a pooper from OZ?

 

[ladyknite]

lol probably so. you'll have to ask Francis.
I suspect the look of dragon isn't different (with exception to locality) but size, natural coloration, body posture and overall appearance would surprise you.

 

[crypticdragons]

Not to mention that when you move into the internals of them. The immune systems of Aussie vitticeps are way different than the ones here in the US. Id say a good comparrison would be a armored mak truck (aussie dragons immune system) to a geo metro (us dragon immune system)

 

[TheVirus]

I have to disagree with you on this one Brian I have a butt load of dragons and I find them to be almost indestructible.

I don't own any fresh imported dragons, so I can't compare them to Aussie dragons. I can compare them to other lizards, and they are very healthy. I also got my first dragons (normals) 16 years ago and I can't tell any difference between them or mine now, other than color of course.

You read about alot of sick beardies simply because people are not good at keeping them. Immune systems are comprimised by poor basking temps and super steam cleaned and disinfected environments. There are keepers trying to add "new blood" to the mix. I know a couple of keepers who are working with Belgium lines, German lines, and Italian lines. If people truly wanted fresh dragons from Australia, they would have them. It goes both ways. You can find Corns and Chameleons, and such in Australia if you know where to look. Just don't expect to see it on a public forum

I have heard that the translucent gene isn't very strong. There are some knowledgeable keepers working with them to strengthen the line. Eventually they will be tanks too

 

[Red Ink AUS]

Not to mention that when you move into the internals of them. The immune systems of Aussie vitticeps are way different than the ones here in the US. Id say a good comparrison would be a armored mak truck (aussie dragons immune system) to a geo metro (us dragon immune system)

lol, I blame the "babying" of dragons for that. You take away natural factors for generations, couple that with hybridazation and poor breeding practices and what do you get, a genetically inferior bearded dragon. It's like kids, if you don't let them play in muck from time to time they never buid up a tolerance for it in their immune systems.

You take multi-generational captive bred dragons never been on sand, never been outdoors, kept in a pristine sterile environment, great yeah? the ideal healthy specimens. NOPE what you have done is created a dragon that can only live in an artificial environment and one that can only cope in those conditions any slight variance to that and the specimen gets sick.

 

[crypticdragons]

I have heard that the translucent gene isn't very strong. There are some knowledgeable keepers working with them to strengthen the line. Eventually they will be tanks too Smiley

Tim that is the main problem as i see it. We are taking unhealthy, poorly bred, and geneticly defficient animals that just happen to look a certain way (and are therefore deemed cool) and breed it until it is strong enough to survive. Not thrive mind you survive. Why you would want to take a geneticly deficient animal and breed it so that it can continue. In nature half of these "special morphs" that we have would never survive because they are bred for looks not for health, size, and strength. Sorry its something i am very passionate about. and yes it is slightly hipocritical of me as i have dragons that were bred for their color. But it doesnt change my views especially on the things we have had pop up the past few years (i.e. trrans, leather, and silks)

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

Hey Francis,
What is the ratio of captive bred to wild caught?

 

[Red Ink AUS]

Hey Francis,
What is the ratio of captive bred to wild caught?

Unknown Tom, BDs here are as common as cats and dogs, providence is not taken very serously here with them (unlike a few other reptile species). Legally there are only two states that allows the capture of wild caught specimen for the commercial trade but this has to be recorded for the transaction. BD's are so common that wild caught specimens rarely ever come on the market. There are a few breeders that work on locality specific breedings with BDs. Unfortunately due to the saturation of them over there and their popularity the first things that come up when you google BDs are US based sites and info. There is slow and alrming trend of "terms and morphs" that new keepers here in OZ are starting to look for those traits as they don't know any better so some people are breedinmg for those traits. Fortunately the serious keepers as a whole here in OZ are still purist as they work on "locality specific" phases rather than fancy "morphs".

I do suspect though that there is a lot of the trade going on in illegally wild caught specimens, whether to keep or to strengthen lines or sell as captive bred.

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

interesting,
so hypos, translucent, leathers, silkies ect, are virtually non existant there.
German giants. Are they a morph or naturally occurring?

 

[crypticdragons]

per francis it is speculated that the "german giant" morph initially came from the yellow phase dragons of Oz as they are normally larger bodies than dragons of other localities. and i may be wrong but im fairly certain its not a virtually non-existant and is more of a non-existant in australia tom.

 

[TheVirus]

Sorry its something i am very passionate about.

Hey Brian,

No need to apologize brother. Its not a right or wrong thing. Like I said earlier, I only like morphs if they are healthy. I don't own anything but colored dragons, simply because I'm waiting to see how the leathers and trans pan out. I have no interest in silks, but thats just me. I could see how someone could.

Some people love the genetic aspect of beardies. There are some keepers who are so in to and knowledgeable about genetics, that talking about it with them makes my head spin so much, that I end up not absorbing anything from the conversations.

I like behaviour. Others like nurturing. Too each is their own

 

[crypticdragons]

i am with ya there tim. Im trying to learn genetics but im slow at it as i have always been more hands on than book smart. And biology just isnt a strong suit for me.

 

[TheVirus]

We used to call them "phase". Red phase bearded dragon or yellow phase. Now its morphs.