Sick Bearded Dragon -

[Anne Williams]

I just read your post on probiotics for Spike. Good idea. I wanted to order some silk worms last week but Coastal Silk worms and another place were out of them. I'll check tonight. Spike likes silk worms but he's been so sick he just lays there...this has been going on and off for a 2.5 weeks. When Spike starts to perk up, he picks his head up, and his body isn't floppy.....we take this indicator that he's getting better so we try to "help" him, by doing things that actually hurt him and make him floppy and listless again. He can't handle having a massage on his front, he can't take too high of heat, he can't take too much force feeding. I'm feeding him bee pollen and maybe I should try soy yogert with a little canned pumpkin and a touch of chicken baby food. I don't want to aspirate him.

I wanted to give Spike 2 days with very little manipulation, except my son holding, stroking and talking to him... Spike hears my son's voice, opens his eyes and I some how feel this gentle connection helps Spike and my son of course.

 

[Shari]

Dear Anne Williams, I cant tell you how worried I am about Spike, bless u Anne. I r incredible. Please let me know how Spike is. I think at a later date u should go back to original vet and complain about his/her services. They are definitely sub-par. I also think I would request a refund of my payment. They seem to have done more damage then poor Spike originally had. Spike doesn’t deserve this. Thank Heaven he has you. I hope I didn’t overstep by sharing my opinion. I’m just so worried and upset. Prayers for ur family and Spike

 

[Galapoodle]

Hi Anne, so I wouldn't do the chicken baby food, just my opinion. If you have a blender (we used a magic bullet), you can make a homemade slurry so it has just good veggies (squash and greens), don't know what else is in the baby food in terms of additives. Ask your vet if they have a probiotic to sell otherwise yes add the soy yogurt. We would syringe feed her a couple times a day, but once is okay since you're not looking to overwhelm him with treatments. We did an oral daily treatment of the Baytril.

I've read many posts about the bee pollen and Reptaid and all that stuff, would have tried it but it wasn't necessary in the end.
Our treatment was simple, multiple daily baths (1 is okay, I know he is super stressed and I agree to give him some space). We also did about 3-4 steams with her (maybe once a week or so), my partner would take her into the bathroom and run the shower, the idea was to loosen the mucous but in the end she got so relaxed she'd poop every time. So have a paper towel under her if you try that. It's not a regular thing to do (humidity is what causes the RIs in the first place).
We also bought a dehumidifier to get her humidity in the tank down (and the ambient humidity in the room she is in). I'd strongly advise taking the water bowl out of Spike's tank as he doesn't need it. They get their water from the food and by either misting them, giving them drops on their noses and some beardies drink bath water.
Btw, with my beardie and a couple other cases I have heard about, beardie a that have had bad RIs tend to continue to gape a lot after they are better. It's like a lazy habit, so don't expect that to go away. I mentioned before that our treatment lasted for 40 days, so patience is key. We did blood tests every month and eventually every 3 months and then 6.

I'm so sorry this is happening to Spike, and I am glad your son and he have bonded. Their time together is special.

 

[Cinna]

Hi Anne, glad to hear Spike is still hanging on
The warm water soaks a few times a day will help more than a hot water bottle. The baths should be warm to the touch and rewarmed as it gets cool. You should be adding Reptisafe water treatment to all water for your baby. It actually has a bit of calcium in it. Personally, I would stop the antibx from the vet when you get the ReptaidXL, the Rx meds made Cinna much worse and caused seizure like twitching, at the Rx dose. The mix I use for Cinna included the Critical care powder, crushed bee pollen, a probiotic powder, Reptivite and Repti-Cal powders, ReptaidXL, Manuka honey UMF15, echinacea powder and aloe juice. The probiotic powder (Inner garden flora) and echinacea powder(Puritan’s pride brand 400mg) both are from capsules for human consumption.
The probiotic powder, the Echinacea powder, the reptivite and repti-cal powders all dosed with a ‘smidgen’ spoon each; The bee pollen dosed with a ‘pinch’ spoon; the aloe dosed with a ‘dash’ spoon; the critical care blend serving was rounded 1/4tsp; the honey dose was approxa ‘dash’ also. Blend all with enough water to get a pudding consistency. And hand feed to Spike with a little wooden stir stick(like from Starbucks). You put a little bit on his nose so he can lick it off, and while his mouth is moving assuming he licks his nose you out a little bit more to his mouth for him to eat and you keep doing that until he refuses. If he refuses to lick it off his nose you may have to use the stick very gently to part his lips and put a small amount in his mouth for him to taste. Once he tastes it he may continue licking and you can add a little bit more at a time. It takes a little bit of doing and a lot of patience and being very gentle. Are use the wooden star stick because it’s very soft compared to a plastic it doesn’t have a sharp edge and you can use it to carefully part his lips and teeth without hurting their mouth.
The Critical Care you can order on Amazon as well for a lot cheaper than any vet will sell it to you. It’s the green and silver bag by Oxbow health and it’s 141g bag of powder and it says natural apple & banana flavor.
I know this is a lot of information but I want you to have every chance that my Cinna did to get better!
If you need pictures of items please let me know I can add them as files to the thread so you can see exactly what I’m using.
And I actually still have Cinna on this mixture in now because she still refuses to eat vegetables so the critical care is her vegetables, and then I’ve been able to integrate meal worms back into her diet as well.

 

[Cinna]

At first before I got a hold of the critical care I tried integrating the baby food with things and she wouldn’t have it, she didn’t like the baby foods. The critical care she took much better and factually it’s much better for them than human baby food, most baby foods believe it or not have a lot of additives and preservative crap in them that are not good for reptiles.

 

[Galapoodle]

Trying to actually answer your questions raised some questions for me. We never did a feeding tube, wasn't suggested and I think it would have been super traumatizing for the dragon. Okay, so when you feed him the baby food, he licks it? If you can get him to take a decent quantity that's good! Ours refused. We had to slip the feeding syringe into the side of her mouth, then center it to get her to take any, she didn't like it at first but took the slurry and swallowed it. Eventually she stopped putting up a fight realizing her tummy liked it. I fed between 5-12ml of slurry per day, 0.5-1 ml per squeeze of the syringe (gentle force feeding). But beardies can take at least a couple days off food. Many months later, she started eating salad all on her own. We also weigh her daily still, use a little kitchen scale to keep an eye on his weight in case her starts losing suddenly.

 

[Babette Murphy]

Hi, I’m sorry to hear of all Spike’s troubles. It’s awful. My beardie was sick also and besides coccidia and pinworms, she had elevated glucose which led to an MRI and ultrasound. They found that she has a stomach cancer that is pretty common in BDs in captivity while they’re young. Have you had her blood run for glucose and liver function?

 

[BeardedHippy]

I feel I should say something about over bathing as there are some myths around about it. There is no water where beardies come from (well, very little), so they have evolved to live without it. They get all of their water from the food they eat. The benefits of bathing are often overstated, they take in no water through the skin or vent so unless they actually drink from the bath they are not hydrating. I would be worried that the humidity from too many baths would exacerbate an RI (plus unable to close nostrils now)and there are other ways to get a dragon to drink if it needs it.
Im not saying baths are bad, sometimes dirty dragons need cleaning and some will only go to the toilet in the bath, but its not natural to them and they are not built for it. I think moderation is essential.
There is a great article about it here, its stickied on the general convo page:
http://reptileapartment.com/water-bearded-dragons/

 

[Anne Williams]

I want to thank everyone for caring so much about Spike. I don't know why I have become so upset about Spike but its really put me into a bad way. I feel so anxious as I want to help him. I love animals and when they are sick it is really difficult. We'll go get soy yogert now, no chicken baby food. Ww will try feeding him tonight, We had a full blood test. His liver was fine. I don't know about glucose. But his calcium was slightly off. We could try a steam shower tomorrow, Spike is usually better mid afternoon. I'm on my way out the door so I'll read everyone's input more when i get back. Thank you!!

 

[Cinna]

Well Anne, keep up the good work
Take it all into account. I gave you the info that helped my baby, and she had multi-system/organ issues, and even coded on me at the worst of it. I know the 2 don’t totally correlate but being an ICU RN for 15 years, I know a bit about general physiology.
The whole problem with her started with edema(fluid build up) in her beard and body, that the vet so viscously aspirated by stabbing her beard with a large needle and squeezing the crap out of her beard, while saying “it doesn’t hurt them”!! Yeah - so that’s why she pooped on him! He made me so mad! And he is THE herp vet for our city’s zoo. He gave her baytril for ??? infection and metacam for pain. He didn’t know what was wrong with her except she was well fed and slightly fat.
After taking her home, I started her meds as prescribed, and they made her even more sick, beard black and she got lethargic. Not too long after that she stopped using her back legs and started having seizure like activity. I immediately stopped the meds and started the other treatment regimens-that included electrolyte soaks 2/day. Tried the organic baby food with the herpvite and reptical mixed in. Did more research, got insight from other herp vets, etc. It all was complicated by yellow fungal problems that caused her to have a skin lesion on her (L)hind leg, and she lost the tip of her tail. She had many days when she didn’t want to be bothered with a black beard. That’s how you can tell they don’t feel well, or are in pain. It took a long time of natural treatment and care to get her back to her usual self again. Feeding a little bit each day, soaks to help keep her hydrated. And I know what that other member keeps saying about soaks for hydration, but I truly believe they help in more ways than absorption of fluid. For Cinna that was one place she closed her eyes, relaxed and felt comfort. It was her spa.
Believe me, all that research and effort paid off. So I’m not just talking here, I did tons of research before giving her anything because I didn’t want to hurt her more. The research on baytril was horrifying, and listed it as rarely helpful, unless obvious infection, but even then made the reptiles more ill.
I truly believe that those natural remedies and soaks helped her recover fully to the happy girl she is today.
Keep at it, don’t over do it with Rx meds, injections,etc.

 

[Anne Williams]

Stop and shop did not have plain soy yogurt so I didn't buy it. The yogurt they had was flavored , had corn starch, sugar...I'll go to a health food store tomorrow and get plain soy yogurt. It seemed like the right choice.

None the less, we fed Spike organic canned pumpkin and he tolerated, I was hopeful. It took 45 minutes to feed him what,...2ML? the small syringe. He was very cute...looked like a clown with orange pumpkin on his nose. I have kids...so they bring a great levity to this, they bring a humanity which is so needed when caring for sick animals. Since we have been gleaning information from every post.... We felt keeping Spike on a warm water bottle while we fed him was a good idea....and yes..this warmth made him more receptive to being fed. Before, when we fed him it took a long time so he got cold.

Thank you for sharing your experience. It has been extremely helpful and supportive for me. Spike is in bed resting. We are hopeful. Good night.

 

[PatsyB]

For the probiotic you can use a bit of children's Culturelle with no additives in it. I hope you can find silk worms somewhere because not only are they high in calcium but they have a natural enzyme that helps with inflammation and other stuff. What I do for syringe feeding is I use Pangea crested gecko food with bugs, it's similar to Carnivore Care, and I use a syringe and put a drop on their nose and coax them to lick it off. Once they get the taste of it they continue licking and I can just keep putting drops on their tongue. It takes awhile for them to eat this way and it can get messy but it works. You can also do this with a homemade slurry of veggies and supplements.

Beardedhippy had a good point with the baths. I would be careful about giving so many because of the fact that he no longer has the cartilage protecting his nose from stuff getting in it. Also, bearded dragons don't have many heat receptors on their belly so they can't sense if something is too hot on their belly and can easily get burned so be careful with the hot water bottle.