Toothless Vet News

[CarbonFiberSwan]

Thats definitely whats goin on in my opinion, you’ve had him a month you say? I dont think bad husbandry is the issue here (not that im accusing you) oil base takes way longer to fully dry, and you definitely soaked it with it being half inch, get him some fresh air and hopefully there will be no lasting affects.

Thank you! I will get him some fresh air, and put the enclosure in direct sunlight for the next few days. It’s supposed to be warm and sunny all weekend, but raining all next week. I have renewed hope that he will get better.

The more I consider it, the more I realize he has been acting disoriented more so than injured. He doesn’t walk or move like he is hurting. He moves like he doesn’t know which way is up. Almost like he is dizzy. He also spends a large amount of time right up against one of the vents in the wall.

 

[Julee1971]

Thats definitely whats goin on in my opinion, you’ve had him a month you say? I dont think bad husbandry is the issue here (not that im accusing you) oil base takes way longer to fully dry, and you definitely soaked it with it being half inch, get him some fresh air and hopefully there will be no lasting affects.

Hi Skybug; actually he shoidl get a real enclosure so the Beardie is housed safely and properly under 8mnths old a 40 gallon $169 at petssmart they make a great one with doors that open in the front, then after 7-8mnths get a 120 gallon.

 

[Skybug]

Hi Skybug; actually he shoidl get a real enclosure so the Beardie is housed safely and properly under 8mnths old a 40 gallon $169 at petssmart they make a great one with doors that open in the front, then after 7-8mnths get a 120 gallon.

He has a real enclosure, there’s nothing wrong with diy enclosures as long as lighting and ventilation is proper and of course the right material is used, I wasn’t trying to disregard your wonderful husbandry advice julee , it seems that the behavior from op’s dragon occurred around the time it was put into its enclosure.

 

[Dexter_Dragon]

I took Toothless for his first vet visit in response to some odd behavior. He seems to be walking very strangely, and he is often resting with his front legs underneath him in odd angles. I was afraid he had Muscular Dystrophy or MBD.

The vet did a full checkup with X-rays and said they believe he was either born with MBD, or he was born with a higher risk of bone disease. They said he is a happy, healthy dragon, and that I have been doing everything right. Unfortunately they said it just happens sometimes with store bought dragons.

They gave him a dewormer and gave me a liquid calcium supplement to give him every day. They told me there is a 50/50 chance that he will get better, but as long as I make sure he is getting enough calcium/heat/UVB, he should not get worse.

I am sad that he has any issue at all, but I am relieved to know that I’ve been doing everything properly, and that there is hope for him to get better.

Here are some pictures of him resting in odd positions. In the picture with his food dish, he was about to fall over. I put him in a better position after getting the picture.

Awww, sorry to hear about Toothless. Great news is he's got you to keep him as healthy as possible going forward.

 

[CarbonFiberSwan]

He has a real enclosure, there’s nothing wrong with diy enclosures as long as lighting and ventilation is proper and of course the right material is used, I wasn’t trying to disregard your wonderful husbandry advice julee , it seems that the behavior from op’s dragon occurred around the time it was put into its enclosure.

I appreciate the careful advice from both of you! I do agree that DIY enclosures are fine. My problem was rushing the process and putting him in it too soon.

 

[CarbonFiberSwan]

I just confirmed with a friend of mine, Toothless started acting strange about a week before I moved him to the new enclosure. My friend came over to see Toothless for the first time, and we were commenting on how odd he was acting. At that point, I had the enclosure inside, and I think I had done the first clear coat layer on the inside, but Toothless was still in his 10 gallon enclosure. So either his behavior is not due to poisoning, or the fumes from the clear coat managed to settle into his aquarium.

 

[Julee1971]

I believe it was an oil based epoxy clear coat. I did not let it air out as long as I should have... He was in such a small tank, and I wanted to get him in his bigger tank, so I rushed it instead of having patience.

The smell is completely gone from the tank now. Could I have poisoned him by putting him in there too soon?

YES absolutely he could & did ingest the epoxy material & inhaled the fumes; it’s prolly still
going on to some degree. Beardies are very very delicate they are not to smell or lick/ingest anything cleaning product wise or material wise; they need to be far away when cleaning, building or epoxying an enclosure. Building an enclosure takes a lot of research & knowledge; they need a mesh screen on top or proper ventilation vents; the right material & the righty sealer. The wood u used mite be an issue as well, there’s all these rules & technicalities so always best to buy one. The Enclosure is definitely part of the issue & maybe ventilation as well. At this point it seems as tho there’s been some health harm done, along with the MBD. I recommend buying a new glass enclosure ASAP; if he’s under 8mnths old, get him a 40 gallon from Petsmart it’s $169 with a Petsmart discount card then order a bigger one online after he reaches 8mnths old; in which the doors open in the front, use white terry cloths as a substrate to keep the cage clean/sanitary. Also, seems like when he fell he injured his bones especially if he was not getting proper UVB/probably has MBD like I stated earlier, then his bones are very weak & brittle to begin with so he probably did damage & got hurt. Did u ask the bet if he saw any broken or fractured bones? And did u let the vet know about the fall? Maybe call them. In the future, U need to please monitor him whenever u take him out of the cage; this is serious & his tank needs to be fall Proof cushiony/towels etc because he’s not healthy. Please get him the Reptisun 10.0 T5 for UVB please; I cannot stress this enough. The 5.0 gives off little to NO UVB at all. U will see a dramatic change trust me on this; he needs it like yesterday or he will keep getting worse. He needs a good reptile vet for calcium shots to help with the MBD. Rite now lots of uvb and the clear zoomed heat lamp & lots of proteins alongside the plate of veggies wveryday but lots of proteins; 4-5 feedings of proteins per day if he’s 0-3mnths old. Lots of crickets per feeding or Dubias or a mix amd feed till they stop eating cuz theybare in the growing stage @ need proteins to build strong bones. 3 feedings of protein per day if he’s 4-8’mths old then go to 2 feedings per day till he reaches a year old. Feed till he stops eating. Then after a year old it’s 10-15 large crickets per day or 20 larges every other day. Amd agin always the fresh plate of greens/veggies. U can add super worms after a year old never sooner & hornworms as treats. DONOT feed him calcium worms; that’s not a good or proper feeder & is not a recommended one; stick to crickets & Dubia roaches they are the best. U stated u are doing calcium everyday; u can’t do that; u are over calcium-Ing him. Give calcium 3-4 times a week & once per day only, but if he has MBD do it 5times a week till he gets better which will take 6Mnths or so. Then do the calcium powder 3-4 times a week which means every other day. Use only the Repcal calcium Not the Faulkner’s brand. Get a big ziplock place the crickets or Dubias for that feeding in it &’ make a teeny knife slit on the aluminum cover of the calcium container & sprinkle the calcium powder like Salt on fries & shake the bag till the crickets are lightly powdered then feed. Do this once per day only, the next set of proteins for the 2nd/3rd feeding of that day u do not give calcium again; u can place them in his water dish & he can get his water intake at the same time. The Herptivite is once per week per day on a non calcium day. Please read In Detail the other post I posted. Rite now; a new cage asap; u can return it when he outgrows it at 8mnths of age & the Reptisun 10.0 T5 NOT the 5.0; please change this ASAP. If no improvement after a few weeks; then he needs a very good reptile vet for X-rays on his bones from his fall off your bed & for the inhaling/ingesting of the fumes & to check for MBD & for calcium shots & u need to be upfront & let the Dr know all the details but I promise you from experience that the change for the 10.0 Bulb will be the fix, but it will be a slow recovery like 6Mnths but u should see improvement within days of the 10.0 install.

 

[Zontar’s Mom]

YES absolutely he could & did ingest the epoxy material & inhaled the fumes; it’s prolly still
going on to some degree. Beardies are very very delicate they are not to smell or lick/ingest anything cleaning product wise or material wise; they need to be far away when cleaning, building or epoxying an enclosure. Building an enclosure takes a lot of research & knowledge; they need a mesh screen on top or proper ventilation vents; the right material & the righty sealer. The wood u used mite be an issue as well, there’s all these rules & technicalities so always best to buy one. The Enclosure is definitely part of the issue & maybe ventilation as well. At this point it seems as tho there’s been some health harm done, along with the MBD. I recommend buying a new glass enclosure ASAP; if he’s under 8mnths old, get him a 40 gallon from Petsmart it’s $169 with a Petsmart discount card then order a bigger one online after he reaches 8mnths old; in which the doors open in the front, use white terry cloths as a substrate to keep the cage clean/sanitary. Also, seems like when he fell he injured his bones especially if he was not getting proper UVB/probably has MBD like I stated earlier, then his bones are very weak & brittle to begin with so he probably did damage & got hurt. Did u ask the bet if he saw any broken or fractured bones? And did u let the vet know about the fall? Maybe call them. In the future, U need to please monitor him whenever u take him out of the cage; this is serious & his tank needs to be fall Proof cushiony/towels etc because he’s not healthy. Please get him the Reptisun 10.0 T5 for UVB please; I cannot stress this enough. The 5.0 gives off little to NO UVB at all. U will see a dramatic change trust me on this; he needs it like yesterday or he will keep getting worse. He needs a good reptile vet for calcium shots to help with the MBD. Rite now lots of uvb and the clear zoomed heat lamp & lots of proteins alongside the plate of veggies wveryday but lots of proteins; 4-5 feedings of proteins per day if he’s 0-3mnths old. Lots of crickets per feeding or Dubias or a mix amd feed till they stop eating cuz theybare in the growing stage @ need proteins to build strong bones. 3 feedings of protein per day if he’s 4-8’mths old then go to 2 feedings per day till he reaches a year old. Feed till he stops eating. Then after a year old it’s 10-15 large crickets per day or 20 larges every other day. Amd agin always the fresh plate of greens/veggies. U can add super worms after a year old never sooner & hornworms as treats. DONOT feed him calcium worms; that’s not a good or proper feeder & is not a recommended one; stick to crickets & Dubia roaches they are the best. U stated u are doing calcium everyday; u can’t do that; u are over calcium-Ing him. Give calcium 3-4 times a week & once per day only, but if he has MBD do it 5times a week till he gets better which will take 6Mnths or so. Then do the calcium powder 3-4 times a week which means every other day. Use only the Repcal calcium Not the Faulkner’s brand. Get a big ziplock place the crickets or Dubias for that feeding in it &’ make a teeny knife slit on the aluminum cover of the calcium container & sprinkle the calcium powder like Salt on fries & shake the bag till the crickets are lightly powdered then feed. Do this once per day only, the next set of proteins for the 2nd/3rd feeding of that day u do not give calcium again; u can place them in his water dish & he can get his water intake at the same time. The Herptivite is once per week per day on a non calcium day. Please read In Detail the other post I posted. Rite now; a new cage asap; u can return it when he outgrows it at 8mnths of age & the Reptisun 10.0 T5 NOT the 5.0; please change this ASAP. If no improvement after a few weeks; then he needs a very good reptile vet for X-rays on his bones from his fall off your bed & for the inhaling/ingesting of the fumes & to check for MBD & for calcium shots & u need to be upfront & let the Dr know all the details but I promise you from experience that the change for the 10.0 Bulb will be the fix, but it will be a slow recovery like 6Mnths but u should see improvement within days of the 10.0 install.

Julee you are again writing everything under the sun and not sticking to topic. Please stop doing this. Your posts are too long to read.

 

[Julee1971]

Julee you are again writing everything under the sun and not sticking to topic. Please stop doing this. Your posts are too long to read.

Because I have written it & seems like it gets overlooked. Trying to address all for the Beardies sake. He has 3issues MBD; needs the Reptisun 10.0 NOT 5.0 for UVB google the difference. Also, the Fumes ingested; Thats deadly needs new cage & xrays for potential broken/fractured bones & calcium shots. If he has MBD they can never ever fall & tank needs to be soft proofed and lots of soft things to cook on to ge to baskig spots. Change the Uvb to the 10.0 & calcium powder & lots of protein. Please read all & apply it for the Beardies sake. We see & handle this stuff everyday. Wishing him the best.

 

[CarbonFiberSwan]

Because I have written it & seems like it gets overlooked. Trying to address all for the Beardies sake. He has 3issues MBD; needs the Reptisun 10.0 NOT 5.0 for UVB google the difference. Also, the Fumes ingested; Thats deadly needs new cage & xrays for potential broken/fractured bones & calcium shots. If he has MBD they can never ever fall & tank needs to be soft proofed and lots of soft things to cook on to ge to baskig spots. Change the Uvb to the 10.0 & calcium powder & lots of protein. Please read all & apply it for the Beardies sake. We see & handle this stuff everyday. Wishing him the best.

I appreciate your detailed information. I am going to implement everything that I need to. I’m not getting him a new enclosure though. I’m keeping him out of it until it has completely cured, so the fumes will no longer be an issue. But I put money and time into this enclosure, and made sure to use correct wood. I am 90% sure everything is hardwood. A friend said the walls “look” like pine to him, but I am sure it is not. So I will be using my custom enclosure once it is properly ready.

I will be going to the store tomorrow in the AM to get a 10.0 light and a mercury vapor bulb for his basking area to make sure he is getting adequate UVB. I watched some videos today comparing the different bulbs, and was surprised to see just how different they are from one another!

I’m going to be getting some sort of soft substrate to put at the bottom to keep him directly off the hard floor. I know you said I need a different vet, but can I at least trust their judgement on the X-rays? He took 2 different X-rays. The first one he said he couldn’t really see the bones, so he took another with a dental X-ray machine. He said he could see the bones really good on that one and they look great. I am still going to go get a second opinion from a different vet, but I am really tight on money at the moment. I can only do what I can do!

It is a beautiful, sunny day here. So I have the enclosure outside in direct sunlight. I’ve got toothless in a little setup outside as well (I am not leaving him out of my sight for a single moment. When I walk away, I bring him with me). He is loving the fresh air and sunlight! I checked the temperature of his spot, and his temperature. He is at 98°F

 

[Skybug]

Is there any mobility difference? You may need to consider sanding the inside of the enclosure, i know that defeats the whole purpose of your clear coat, but if the symptoms continue you may need to have all options open even getting a new enclosure :/ its impossible to know all the variables in a situation like this, just watch out for birds they can be surprisingly ballsy sometimes , he’s looking nice and alert today though.

 

[CarbonFiberSwan]

Is there any mobility difference? You may need to consider sanding the inside of the enclosure, i know that defeats the whole purpose of your clear coat, but if the symptoms continue you may need to have all options open even getting a new enclosure :/ its impossible to know all the variables in a situation like this, just watch out for birds they can be surprisingly ballsy sometimes , he’s looking nice and alert today though.

I am open to getting a new enclosure if it is necessary. I’ll sand the clear coat off this one too if I need to. But the point of building the enclosure myself was because I don’t have the money for a new tank. If I get him a new one, it will be later, when I have had time to save the money for it. I’ve already spent over $500 on enclosure costs, food, and the vet, and I’ve barely had him over a month! I knew there was care cost involved, but it’s not all supposed to happen at once...

As I said, I am open to do whatever I need to to make sure he is healthy and well taken care of, but I’m not going to impulsively go drop another $170 on a new tank that will have to be upgraded in 3 months. I will take him for a 2nd vet opinion and explain everything, and see what they say. Once I’ve done that I’ll update here to see what you all have to say. Then I will make my decision according to all the variables.

 

[CarbonFiberSwan]

Is there any mobility difference? You may need to consider sanding the inside of the enclosure, i know that defeats the whole purpose of your clear coat, but if the symptoms continue you may need to have all options open even getting a new enclosure :/ its impossible to know all the variables in a situation like this, just watch out for birds they can be surprisingly ballsy sometimes , he’s looking nice and alert today though.

Forgot to answer your question. No, there doesn’t seem to be any mobility difference. He is still tucking his front legs, and he is still walking strangely. He does seem quite a bit more active though. The direct sun and fresh air were definitely good for him

 

[Skybug]

Forgot to answer your question. No, there doesn’t seem to be any mobility difference. He is still tucking his front legs, and he is still walking strangely. He does seem quite a bit more active though. The direct sun and fresh air were definitely good for him

Im finding with my situation its a pay now or pay later scenario , I started with a 40gal breeder and a year later im upgrading to a 120gal zenhab with new lighting, i didnt think the “entery fee” was steep either but now that im looking back i wish I started out getting the big enclosure, but thats just my short story, im glad he’s getting some sunshine and fresh air , please do give us an update if u can

 

[CarbonFiberSwan]

I’ve got some raised bed gardens in my yard. I don’t have an outdoor enclosure. I know it is bad to use loose substrate in a Beardie enclosure due to impaction risk, but is it ok to put him in the raised garden for an hour or so to bask? They are all in full sun, and I would sit next to him the whole time, but I figure it would give him opportunity to bask, and an opportunity to exercise/explore. I think both are going to be very needed in his recovery

 

[Skybug]

I’ve got some raised bed gardens in my yard. I don’t have an outdoor enclosure. I know it is bad to use loose substrate in a Beardie enclosure due to impaction risk, but is it ok to put him in the raised garden for an hour or so to bask? They are all in full sun, and I would sit next to him the whole time, but I figure it would give him opportunity to bask, and an opportunity to exercise/explore. I think both are going to be very needed in his recovery

I personally have never had an issue with my beardie eating her substrate (bark chips,sand,dirt) , the main reason they do it is to get additional minerals, i think it would be absolutely okay as long as he’s being monitored and can u confirm no pesticides have been sprayed, if he eats something dont trip give him some veg or fruit , maybe tie a string around one of his legs so he cant bolt(although unlikely)

 

[CarbonFiberSwan]

I personally have never had an issue with my beardie eating her substrate (bark chips,sand,dirt) , the main reason they do it is to get additional minerals, i think it would be absolutely okay as long as he’s being monitored and can u confirm no pesticides have been sprayed, if he eats something dont trip give him some veg or fruit , maybe tie a string around one of his legs so he cant bolt(although unlikely)

No pesticides have been sprayed. The gardens don’t even have plants yet, so it’s just soil.

 

[Frostie]

I had a textured plastic liner down and he didn’t like it. I will try to find something with more of a rubbery texture and see if it helps. I definitely have noticed that he can’t get any traction when trying to run after his bugs.

I use reptile carpet

 

[Frostie]

I have a 4 yrs old dragon named Sandzilla I use reptile carpet for him and it's easy to keep clean