Sand "We personally can not recommend it"

[gilliesexotics]

Over the years we have tried many different "reptile marketed" substrates. With each one eventually being pulled for one reason or another. After failing with one to the next about 5 years ago we decided its time to just stick to newspaper or paper towel bottom. Cosmetically i really like substrates and im not sure if the dragons particularly care for it but it makes me feel like im providing a home close to what they would have in the wild. The fact is no substrate we offer even sand is remotely close. Just for our own eye candy and humanizing what the dragon may like we think something should be on the floor of the cage. We put the animal at risk for health issues and possibly even death.

I have heard and seen first hand people having success with substrates over the years. I know of quite a few keepers that do still keep on substrates and have for many years now. I can say they have been lucky that they havent encountered the animals that will consume for what ever reason substrate. After joining this forum and reading Germ and Mungis stand on sand. We decided to give it a shot on a few select animals. Today is the day we pull the sand and it is no longer being used or recommended by us. No offense to Germ or Mungi. As of an hour ago i was giving one of our male adults that is 21 inches long and one of our biggest adult males here a bath. I witnessed him passing more sand than any animal should for any reason. Had he been a 10 inch dragon im not convinced i would not have a problem on my hands. We have to face the facts that not every single owner is going to provide the care some of us provide. Someone that may have had a busy week at school or work or heck even life issues. If they would have skipped hydration times just for what ever reason. This male could have been in trouble. If the animal had been kept on newspaper or paper towel this would not have been within his digestive tract leading to possible problems.

I would like to put a ending story here for those that do think ah, this guy is full of it. We know that english walnut is not a good choice for a substrate, right? My wifes sister has kept for the last 7 years a dragon named jimmy on english walnut successfully. Again with another hurdle of free ranging feeders on this stuff. Would you recommend it?

Im not asking for you to change your ways or even to take sides. I would just like for you to understand that every animal is not created the same and that sand can create a possible problem for an animal. Even if it is 1 out of 100 animals, that one's problem could have been avoided.

Edit: The thread title "We" is meaning Gillies Exotics

 

[Germ]

All I will say to this is, that the sand passed right through it without issue, which is what I have always experienced. Seeing sand in the stool is not a problem, if substantial amounts of indigestible substrates are ingested & not seen in the stool is when we should be concerned. Because that is what happens when sand is ingested, it passes right through without issue & you may see it in the stool because of this. I, nor has Brett, ever said that anyone should or has to use play sand as a substrate, just what I have used for many years, as many, many keepers & Breeders have & that it is a very viable, acceptable substrate. 1 in a 100 is quite far fetched, as in all the years I have been in the Hobby, I have yet to see one documented, proven instance that strained, Children's Washed Play Sand has ever been the cause of an impaction. In my opinion Children's Washed Play Sand that has been strained through a fine screen is the only particle substrate that I would recommend.

As I have said many times, if gravel is used, or the sand has not been strained through a fine screen, to remove the larger pebbles, that is not the Sand's fault, that is simply "Poor Husbandry".

This is simply Personal Preference. There are many non-particle substrate alternatives to choose from, that is entirely the Keepers choice.

 

[gilliesexotics]

Not that i am here to debate this as we all have our opinions. Though we have not seen any "documented" proof yet on the internet... How many people take a reptile in for necropsy? It is very expensive and i dont know anyone personally that has for a reptile. Understand, im not justifying this as my back bone to my reasoning. 1 out of 100 was a hypothetical number as i said "Even if" and for me it could have been an 1 out of 4 situation. My point is one of my males showed an abnormal amount of sand in his feces. Had this been a busy this week for me, my poor husbandry may have resulted in a bad situation.

I know you and bret do not push people to use this stuff. If anything i said was portrayed or was interrupted that way. I want to be clear that i didnt mean anything of the sort. I respect both of your opinions on here and think the both of you give great advice.

 

[Mungi's Buddha]

I guess seeing as how my name and opinions have been brought up in this thread then it would only be right that my few cents on the subject be added into the discussion.
First of all to Gillie I'm very glad that you witnessed first hand your dragon passing the sand that he had for whatever reason ingested. I believe as Germ and I have both said many times previously that the fact that washed, sifted children's play-sand is considered a safe alternative substrate for age/size appropriate dragon enclosures is specifically that it does pass safely through the digestive tract and unlike many other particulate substrates available to reptile owners it does not bind up and cause impaction.
While I value your opinion and personal choice to discontinue using it with your dragons I do not see any proof that it did any harm to your dragon nor any reason that a huge red flag should be tossed into the air to cause undo concern or alarm for someone else who currently uses it or might be considering using it as their choice of substrates. And in fact see what you have presented as just further proof that there is no worry as long as your dragon meets the prerequisites for using it as substrate.
The fact remains that washed,sifted children's playsand has been a tried and proven safe alternative substrate choice for dragons 10+ inches snout-tip to tail-tip by 100s of breeders and keepers for decades.
You have mentioned necropsies and not knowing anyone who has gone to the expense of having one performed on a reptile. Now you have because I personally have for many animals under my care over the years including reptiles when there was not a clear cut reason for their demise. As far as ever finding playsand as the cause or even a contributing factor of death I have never found that in a necropsy result. Interestingly however I have found impaction caused by the ingestion of newspaper and paper towels and even repti-carpet which are also other popular substrate choices.
Also I would question as to what was causing your dragon to ingest large amounts of substrate in the first place. Well nourished and well hydrated dragons as well as most other creatures I have ever dealt with don't generally choose substrate ie sand over their food and water to begin with. I would also question as to exactly what is the amount considered "passing more sand than any animal should for any reason"?

Please do not take any of this as a personal attack against you Gillie because it is in no way meant in that spirit. Your opinions and experiences are valued here in this forum by myself as well as many others and it is the purpose of this forum in my view to share experiences both good and bad in hopes of providing and finding sound information that can and will be of benefit to all members of the forum and to better the care and lives of the dragons we all love and care for.
However I believe that you had a single experience that shocked you and because of that single experience have decided to pass judgement as proof of fact when the only fact I see is that your dragon passed the sand straight though without harm just as has been stated it does.No harm No Foul,right?

Substrate choice is of course a personal choice and your choosing to remove the sand is absolutely your choice to make but it does not mean that if someone else chooses to go the playsand route that their choice is any better or worse for the animal. You know not to long ago I changed Mungi's substrate from sand to his present slate tiles. Did I do it because the sand posed a danger to him? N0pe not in the least. I made the choice because when he was ill and I was having to do multiple daily cleanings I removed all substrate and then after he was well again I happened across a tile that I really liked the look of. Would I ever go back to sand? Fact is in a heartbeat if I decided to change his house again but I like the way it looks now and so does he.

I've spent my nickle here so my rant is done...lol
Enjoy!

 

[gilliesexotics]

Hi Mungi, I value your thoughts. If anyone here will type in "bearded dragon impacted by sand" in google. You can read on another site about instances that were said to be found by a vet. Was the sand sifted or was the dragon under proper husbandry we truly will not know. It is honestly besides other accounts at the moment or even the lack there of. We all know bearded dragons lick as they roam about the cage. I believe some either do it more or for what ever reason ingest more than what we would think a normal dragon would ingest. The other three that received a bath today only had minimal amounts of sand. Nothing that would alarm me. The one that did pass more sand than i would think any dragon should have, ingested approximately a teaspoon of sand. Yes this dragon passed this sand as many have said they will do but this is not my point. We all want everyone to care for there dragons with the best a person can possibly give. Real life just happens sometimes, work, family, etc can hender ones care to these lizards. I know i try to give them my best and sometimes i wonder if it is enough but at any rate. If things come up and you miss that important bath time or maybe you miss it twice and a dragon has ingested this much. I really cant say i want to know the outcome. Sifted sand, proper husbandry, we can say what we want but we are human and can, will make mistakes. This instance was enough for me to say it is possible.

Mungi, if you dont mind i would like to read about the accounts being impacted from newspaper or paper towel. I was not aware of this. I keep my baby chameleons, geckos and dragons, various types of adult geckos, adult dragons, on this stuff and had no clue this was possible. Do you have any links?

A person does have the choice ultimately, i just hope they make the best one for the animal and how they care for the animal.

BTW: My males on sand during this trial were hand fed insects. Not one insect touched sand.

 

[Germ]

Real life just happens sometimes, work, family, etc can hender ones care to these lizards. I know i try to give them my best and sometimes i wonder if it is enough but at any rate. If things come up and you miss that important bath time or maybe you miss it twice and a dragon has ingested this much. I really cant say i want to know the outcome. Sifted sand, proper husbandry, we can say what we want but we are human and can, will make mistakes.

Sorry, but you can not go around blaming Play Sand for Human error, which is how I believe it got the bad rep in the first place.

A different example, a UVB bulb is forgotten to be regularly changed & a Dragon as a result develops MBD. Is this the Bulb's fault? Not any more than your scenario is the Sand's fault. Human error, is human error & that is all there is to it. Blaming or using a product that happened to have been recently used or fed as a scapegoat without actually proving it to be the cause, so we don't have to admit that we screwed up is how so many 'Myths' about the care of these guys get started.

You have every right as a keeper to choose the substrate of your choice. But I fail to see the reasoning behind your post, when a larger amount of sand was ingested, you found it in it's stool because it passed right through, as play sand does & is what makes it a safer substrate to use.

 

[gilliesexotics]

Im not asking for you to change your ways or even to take sides. I would just like for you to understand that every animal is not created the same and that sand can create a possible problem for an animal.

This has turned into a debate of "opinions". We can agree to disagree

 

[khaleesi]

Sorry to put my nose in but if anybody has seen the pictures I've uploaded yesterday you will have seen I introduced a small amount of washed, sifted play sand to my female, simply to see how she reacts to it as I would like her to become accustomed to it simply because she IS female and at some point MAY become gravid, in my opinion I am doing the very best for my girl. I may not be as highly educated on all things Bearded Dragon as some of the people on this site claim, and prove themselves to be, however I do extensive research and ask many questions in many different places to get the widest possible range of opinions before I make my own, what I consider to be, informed decision about the situation. At times we all become obsessive about small things regarding our children (dragons/reptiles in general) for many different reasons, but as it has already been said play sand is considered to be VERY safe to use for our dragons as it is not likely to cause blockages etc it has no pollutants, otherwise would it still be safe for our human children to play with?! and holds no risk to human health or reptiles. Lets be honest, what we consider to be poor husbandry on our part, many reptile owners consider the same level of care to be their VERY best level of care on their part, and worse, we as reptile enthusiasts have all heard stories of beautiful animals living in atrocious conditions. I've drifted from my point, what I wanted to say was it seems unfair to come on to a forum and announce to all that in your opinion play sand is pants and people who I and many others hold in high regard to be full of crap. Although it was never said in those words and you attempt to make it clear you didn't mean that you should think before you speak, I saw your name when you first joined this forum and I thought, hmm Gillies Exotics, she is somebody I'm going to follow she will have informed answers and information I will probably find useful and informative, in many respects I held you in the same regard as Germ and Mungi and many others, Noella, PatB and BabyBeardie, to name but a few, but reading your original post has made me think, really?! On your part Gillie I think it was slightly silly to launch an attack on...well I'm not even sure!! Make a post, air your views etc by all means but leave other people out of it...

And my rant is over I do hope you all have a good day, and Gillie I mean you no offense I simply said what I thought. I would expect exactly the same honesty if it were me.

 

[gilliesexotics]

No offense taken. We all comprehend from text on the internet differently. It was not an attempt to attack mungi or germ. We all have different views from our experiences.

It is your choice to use sand for the reasons you believe. I wish your dragon the best with it.

 

[Spikeleebd]

all i can do is hit the power button on my monitor and walk away this is the 3rd time this month. if you want to feel safe gillie just do a 75% sand and 25% soil this will also enable your lizards that like to build dens it will help them to hold. did you know many lizards die from to much humidity in a cage due to owners not changing out newspapers or mold growing from the newspaper because owners are too careless to change it out. it is just all about proper husbandry. remember when you were telling me about the bd in the bird cage with the pathos. it all boils down to proper care.

 

[Pat B]

OK boys ....As has been said many times....the substrate you use is your personal preferenece. It is ok to agree to disagree as we are all adults and respect every one else's opinion. Personally, I have used both....slate and sand. I prefer the sand because that, to me, is a dragon's natural habitat. I truly believe there was no offense taken by any one....to each their own. Anyway....Gillie, Germ and Brett....you guys are the best!! I would say....love you all....but that would be highly inappropriate since I don't know any of you!!

 

[Noella]

There was a necropsy done on a female bearded dragon on crushed walnut substrate and had eaten mealworms. The mealworms were undigested and possibly fed before she died. Her intestines were full of crushed walnut substrate. It didn't say sand was the culprit behind her death. I can show you the page, but it's graphic. Way graphic and you can probably find it on google.

Calci-sand, or any substrate sold in pet stores are the reasons why beardies get impacted.

Very graphic, viewer discretion advised:
http://mrskingsbioweb.com/DragonDissection/dragondissection45.JPG
http://mrskingsbioweb.com/DragonDissection/dragondissection46.JPG
http://mrskingsbioweb.com/DragonDissection/dragondissection51.JPG

Using play-sand's a safer alternative if you 'plan' to use it. It's based on everyone's preference and whether or not they chose to use play-sand as a substrate. I 'chose' not to use it as a 100% substrate. I prefer newspaper or paper towels as a substrate.

 

[Mungi's Buddha]

Hi Mungi, I value your thoughts. If anyone here will type in "bearded dragon impacted by sand" in google. You can read on another site about instances that were said to be found by a vet. Was the sand sifted or was the dragon under proper husbandry we truly will not know. It is honestly besides other accounts at the moment or even the lack there of. We all know bearded dragons lick as they roam about the cage. I believe some either do it more or for what ever reason ingest more than what we would think a normal dragon would ingest. The other three that received a bath today only had minimal amounts of sand. Nothing that would alarm me. The one that did pass more sand than i would think any dragon should have, ingested approximately a teaspoon of sand. Yes this dragon passed this sand as many have said they will do but this is not my point. We all want everyone to care for there dragons with the best a person can possibly give. Real life just happens sometimes, work, family, etc can hender ones care to these lizards. I know i try to give them my best and sometimes i wonder if it is enough but at any rate. If things come up and you miss that important bath time or maybe you miss it twice and a dragon has ingested this much. I really cant say i want to know the outcome. Sifted sand, proper husbandry, we can say what we want but we are human and can, will make mistakes. This instance was enough for me to say it is possible.

Mungi, if you dont mind i would like to read about the accounts being impacted from newspaper or paper towel. I was not aware of this. I keep my baby chameleons, geckos and dragons, various types of adult geckos, adult dragons, on this stuff and had no clue this was possible. Do you have any links?

A person does have the choice ultimately, i just hope they make the best one for the animal and how they care for the animal.

BTW: My males on sand during this trial were hand fed insects. Not one insect touched sand.

@Gillies....Firstly my apology for the delay in response but the truth of the matter is that I have been experiencing some serious complications with the surgery I recently had to have which have made me unable to get back on here for the last few days.
As to your request for Internet info on impactions from newspaper, paper towels and repticarpet that I mentioned in my previous response if you will reread what I wrote I was informing you of results that I personally experienced through necropsies done on my personal creatures that I paid for out of my pocket and still do not hesitate to do if a death of a creature under my care occurs and can not be 100% explained by other tests or means.
I for one have never been one to except " They just died". To me that is an unacceptable answer and always will be and the expense of a necropsy albeit expensive is never nor ever would be an expense I would hesitate to make or question if it is justified when it comes to a creature under my personal care.
With that understood also know that I am a person that has always kept meticulous records. I have also at one time or another actively bred commercially several different species of animals including some of the reptile species.
At current I as I have posted before don't breed commercially though and at least for the time being have no desire to get back into the game.
I do however still have every record pertaining to every creature that I have ever kept, raised or bred including day to day records and medical records for each.
I have only lived in Ohio for less than two years and consequently the majority of my personal things including furniture, clothing, as well as the 40+ boxes of my records are still in a storage facility in Mississippi where my previous residence was. Long haul truckers such as my self tend to be frequent customers of storage facilities as most are never home enough to unbox things but that's another subject..lol)
It may take me some time before I am able to make the 1400+ mile round trip to retrieve my stuff which I had already planned knowing now that the lady I will be sharing the rest of my life with is here in Ohio and that this is where "our home" is for certain.....
But as soon as I can retrieve my stuff from storage you can bank on the fact that I will personally get you complete copies of the necropsy reports I spoke of which contain both xrays as well as photographs I personally took having been present at each necropsy.
Until then you will have to accept my words on the subject.
In closing I think we can agree that all "substrates" pose some degree of danger or potential risk. Some much higher than other and even when choosing the agreed safest choice there will still be some risks because there will always be the exception to the rules which can not be foreseen.
Those "exceptions" however do not ever give justification for tossing the baby out with the bath water.
It is your choice not to continue using the playsand albeit considered for decades as a perfectly safe substrate choice and even though in your own stated experience it did exactly what makes it considered safe in that when your dragon ingested it he did not become impacted but instead the sand passed straight through with no issue.
If going back to paper substrate and choosing not to use the sand makes you feel safer though then I will be the first to agree paper is the perfect choice for you
Enjoy your week.