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Observation 2008

ladyknite

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In my post “Is it instinct” I asked for your opinions on if you thought natural instinct still applied to our animals. My question was based on this observation.

My initial observation was intended to be based on appetite and brumation, but took a different, unexpected road into the application of lighting, the variation in basking temperatures, and what appears as the desire to get closer to the rays as the strength weakens. Some seems to be based on age, the rest appears to be instinctual, and unlike what I see people here speak of.

I will tell you that blood calcium draws are performed, but are not comparable at this time. It will take another 2 years to compile and compare that data for an accurate chart. Icriad is not any danger however.

These are only my short notes, please keep in mind. My full notes are much more detailed.

While you read, I’d like you to develop opinions on what you can visualize.

Instinct Observations

2-21-2008

I begin this observation using Icriad as my prime. She is a 5 year old German Giant Cross, weighing 1347 grams on this date, and she is 25.25 inches long. Her fecal was negative for all parasites. Her appetite is standard. She eats approximately 40 bugs per week and 3 salads per day.

Jonyx is my control. She is a 5 year old German Giant Cross weighing 1401 grams and is 25 inches long. Her fecal was negative for all parasites. Her appetite is standard. She eats approximately 40 bugs per week and 3 salads per day.

Icriad’s enclosure is 6 ‘ x 2’ x 2’ and has a basking site of 112F and a second basking site of 120F. There is a 4.0 Foot Repti Sun 10.0, impletmented on todays date, internally mounted.

Jonyx’s enclosure is 6 ‘ x 2’ x 2’ and has a basking site of 112F and a second basking site of 120F. There is a 4.0 Foot Repti Sun 10.0, impletmented on todays date, internally mounted.


The substrate for both enclosures is shelf liner. The basking site is drift wood. There is a sand portion approximately 8 inches thick at one end of her enclosure



3-30-2008
Icriad’s behavior has not varied in the last month since her move. She seems to like the lower basking temperature.

Jonyx’s behavior has not varied in the last month since her move. She seems to like the lower basking temperature.

6-5-2008
The Repti Sun is due to be changed. Icriad is noted to be climbing closer to the UVB lighting than she has in the previous months. Is that because it’s losing it’s strength? There have been no other changes in behavior.

Jonyx hasn’t moved from her original basking spot.


6-12-2008
The UVB has been replaced in both enclosures and Icriad is noted retreating lower on her basking site. Her appetite is irratic…….and she seems to eat more on some days than others. She has began to move to the cooler end by late evening and is inside her cave by nightfall.


7-1-2008
Icriad is in brumation sound asleep. Fecal results were negative. Lighting was shut down and water was removed.

7-27-2008
Jonyx is in brumation. Fecal was negative. Lighting shut down and water removed.

11-11-2008
It must be wake up time. Icriad is half way out of her cave as if searching for the light. I turned them back on and she climbed her basking spot. I gave her a long soak and replaced her water bowl.

Jonyx is still asleep, but opens her eyes from time to time and glares at me like she’s evil.


3-9-2009
Fecal results were negative. The UVB is timed for replacement. Icriad is again noted moving closer to the UVB as it ages. Appetite is back, so is attitude. She’s stomping around and smacking the enclosure because she senses Czar. Gotta move him.

Jonyx moved closer to the UVB over the last 2 days. I replaced her bulb on todays date and she retreated to her regular spot.

Note:
4-12-2009
I’ve decided to post pone my lighting replacement to observe if she will climb closer still to the UVB.


4-22-2009
Icriad has moved up another little bit closer to the UVB lighting while she basks. Her appetite has stayed the same and her energy level is adequate.

Jonyx is eating great and basking well.

5-16-2009.
Icriad has positioned herself approximately 4-5 inches from the UVB light while basking. She doesn’t attempt to relocate to the cooler end as much as she used to. Is this a thermoregulation problem?


6-23-2009
Icriad’s appetite is declining although she is constantly basking. Fecal results showed a 3+ on coccidian count. She is still at the upper portion of the basking site close to the light.

Jonyx is still eating well. She’s showing irritation at Icriad from across the room.


7-9-2009
Icriad is showing signs of wanting to brumate, but I’ll try to prevent that for now. (this bulb experiment has me not wanting her to go down without exposure)

Jonyx went into her cave yesterday and has stayed there all day today. Lighting for this enclosure what shut down.

7-11-2009
Replaced UVB bulb for Icriad.


7-14-2009
Icriad remained close to the UVB for the first couple of days, but has finally began backing off some. Her coccidian count remains the same, as does her appetite.


7-22-2009
Icriad has crawled into her cave. I’ll give her a couple of weeks and wake her. Lighting has been turned off.


8-8-2009
I took Icriad out today and gave her a bath and got a new fecal sample. I turned the lights on and she basked for several hours, then went back to sleep. The coccidian count remains at 3+


10-12-2009
I woke Icriad again today and gave her a bath and turned the lights on for the day.


12-12-2009
Jonyx woke up and began roaming around the enclosure today. I turned the lighting up and she began to bask.


12-29-2009
Icriad is awake and coming out of her cave. I turned the lights on, but she wasn’t sure it was time to wake up. She stayed close to her cave all day and to bed early tonight.

12-30-2009
Icriad was basking when I got up. She attacked her salad the second I put it in the enclosure. She was soaked today and her water bowl was placed back in her enclosure. Her basking temperatures are stable now, however, she is basking at a temp of 108 vs. the 112 from 2008.

Jonyx is eating well. She’s basking at the 112F. area of her basking site.

1-26-2010
Icriad continues to bask at the 108F temp. Appetite is good. Fecal exam showed negative for parasites and coccidian count was within scope.

3-10-2010
Icriad has began to stomp her cage again. What’s setting her off this time? Maybe it’s because the new puppy is smaller than her???!!??? She continues to bask at a lower temperature. Appetite is stable.

Jonyx is eating well. She’s basking at the 108F. area of her basking site.

4-9-10
Icriad has moved on her basking site so that she is closer to the UVB, but further from direct heat. Her appetite isn’t good. She’s definitely sensing males.


4-27-10
The UVB meter is showing a rapid decline in a bulb was in use less than 6 months. Icriad’s location is within 3 inches of it. She is spending the majority of her day and most of the early evening in this spot. She moves closer to the basking light for a few hours each day….but not many. She’s also basking at a position of 105-106F. Her appetite has decreased. No parasites present.

Jonyx is eating well. No parasites are present. She’s currently basking between 105-108F.


This observation is unique to my dragons and i am not indicating this will apply to other animals
 

beardielover17

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It looks as though the dragons know when the UV isn't strong enough for them. I could be wrong but that's what it looks like here.
 

zebraflavencs

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The behaviors you state, do appear to indicate that very thing. Interesting.
 

Craiger

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ladyknite said:
4-9-10
Icriad has moved on her basking site so that she is closer to the UVB, but further from direct heat. Her appetite isn’t good. She’s definitely sensing males.

Very interesting thread. Other than the fact that I feel the study is great and warrants the idea that they can sense the UVB levels, your post on April 9th of this year caught my eye. I apologize if it seems I'm getting off topic a bit, but it does concern something you've said.

How well do they sense the opposite sex? Is it due only to sight? Or can they sense them in other ways? I noticed you mentioning appetite not being good. Is this because of her sense of the males? I'm extremely interested in this as I've been experiencing very similar issues to Frodo and Sam. More Frodo than Sam as he seems preoccupied with her almost 100% of the time he's up and around.

If needing to move them, how far away?
 

ladyknite

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How well do they sense the opposite sex? Is it due only to sight? Or can they sense them in other ways? I noticed you mentioning appetite not being good. Is this because of her sense of the males?

To be honest Craig, I'm not sure. So I'll tell you what I've seen in some other observations.
When deer are in rutt, their excitement isn't based on the female standing 4 inches to the left. It's the smell.
When dogs go into heat, what draws the males? The smell.
When most animals come into season, they produce pheremones. Do reptiles? Supposedly that function is part of the apocrine gland located in the "sweat glands" of most things. However, sex organs are considered sweat glands. Are they on dragons? I dunno.
My older dragons were bred when they were younger. Now it seems they know it's that time, even tho they don't breed anymore. maybe their behavior is anticipation.

Its my thought that Icriad's appetite is diminished due to the strength of her UVB, which is at this point, 9 months old.
 

Craiger

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ladyknite said:
How well do they sense the opposite sex? Is it due only to sight? Or can they sense them in other ways? I noticed you mentioning appetite not being good. Is this because of her sense of the males?

To be honest Craig, I'm not sure. So I'll tell you what I've seen in some other observations.
When deer are in rutt, their excitement isn't based on the female standing 4 inches to the left. It's the smell.
When dogs go into heat, what draws the males? The smell.
When most animals come into season, they produce pheremones. Do reptiles? Supposedly that function is part of the apocrine gland located in the "sweat glands" of most things. However, sex organs are considered sweat glands. Are they on dragons? I dunno.
My older dragons were bred when they were younger. Now it seems they know it's that time, even tho they don't breed anymore. maybe their behavior is anticipation.

Its my thought that Icriad's appetite is diminished due to the strength of her UVB, which is at this point, 9 months old.

Thanks Gina. There's still so much we don't know about dragons. I'll continue to keep an eye on him. His UVB is relatively new, so I don't believe it's that.
 

ladyknite

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I correlate Sam and Frodo and come out with 2 male hobbits. ultimately 2 male dragons. We'll call Saminina for now. lol

About this time of year, many of my males (not the older bunch) begin pacing their cages, more hyper than usual, not eating well. I'm thinking temperatures trigger their instinct to want to breed or fight, or both.
 

Craiger

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ladyknite said:
I correlate Sam and Frodo and come out with 2 male hobbits. ultimately 2 male dragons. We'll call Saminina for now. lol

About this time of year, many of my males (not the older bunch) begin pacing their cages, more hyper than usual, not eating well. I'm thinking temperatures trigger their instinct to want to breed or fight, or both.

You know, Bev told me I go through this every year at this time....worrying about Frodo. I have fecals done only to find he's parasite-free. I want to try and get him to eat by offering him food in a syringe. I never force-feed, just offer it on his nose and wait for him to lick it off. LOL! But....she reminded me that, like every other year, he'll come out of it and start eating normally again. I want to beleive that, but I still worry. I have this feeling that he's just not getting what he should be getting. So....feel like I need to "help" him. He's not losing weight....and appears to be perfectly fine other than black-bearding, head-bobbing and running all over (back and forth....AND into the glass). He's definitely more hyper than usual. So....I guess I need to cough it up to temperatures and instinct. After all....I do believe they still have instincts. LOL!

I'm really sorry if I redirected your thread.
 

staylor

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After reading over this, it has me wondering. You stated in your study that Icraid moved closer to the light when it was time to change the UV bulb. I have noticed Slyder is basking closer to his light as well. I thought this was just him changing things up. The light is only 2 months old but you also stated that you noticed the lights where not lasting 6 months.

Just wondering if I should replace the UV bulb or wait 6 months? Or should I do a little experiment of my own, get a new one see if he moves back. If he does put the old one back in and see if he starts basking closer to the UV again? If so put the new one back in and toss the old.

I love this site!!! I learn so much.
 

Red Ink AUS

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Observations of experiment.

UV reduction corelates to movement of basking position in the specimens. Instinctual as they would sense it through the perennial gland and dragons see ultraviolet radiation.
Mating observation may or may not be due to pheromones but i suspect it would have to do with morphological changes in male colouration not visible to us. There was a study while i was at University by a PhD student i knew that was looking into this but in snakes.

Morphological map of ultraviolet absorption areas in BDs in the following images.

Normal ambient lighting under full Reptiglo coil 10.0.
_DSF0038.jpg

Darker areas highlighted in red indicate less radiation reflection therefore absoption lighter in blue indicating higher reflectance indicating less absorption. (this is why BDs flatten when basking as i suspect)

Change in subtle male morphology during breeding season may also change areas of UV reflectance that the female specimens can sense (see).

Ultraviolet picture with visible part of the spectrum cut out only allowing UV to be captured.
_DSF0039.jpg


When specimens are offered two different temperature choices, instinctual preference is shown to provide optimum metabolic temps as well as thermal regulation.

Brumation is not triggered by temperature fluctuations (as they are stable in the tanks) , rather an instinctual trigger dependant on unknown factor (x). I suspect outside barometric factors as well as natural photo-period. (though theory unproven).

Suggestions to solidify findings and observations:
Acquire UVB meter in order to map UVB decline and corelate with behaviour.
This will provide a base reading of output at preferred basking height from source, cross reference with output to see whether vertical movements closer to source will show the same baseline output. This will then let us know the optimum desired UVB output for the specimens as shown by instinctual behaviour therefore providing valuable information on lighting theories. Any lighting source that will provide this baseline output can then be deemed as a suitable source of UVB and we are not locked in to manufacturer specifications and market economy.
Acquire a copy of Reptiles Australia Vol 6 Issue 2 as reference for NMBD article in relation to UVB and nutrition. (they will ship it to you Gina very interesting read)

Questions:
Do the specimens bask all they or do they thermoregulate at different parts of the enclosure?
 

Red Ink AUS

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Red Ink AUS said:
Questions:
Do the specimens bask all they or do they thermoregulate at different parts of the enclosure?

Correction bask all day not "bask all they" lol
 

zebraflavencs

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Mine certainly don't bask all day..
Yardley for instance.. He was under the Reptisun 10.0 tube. His enclosure is a Cross Fire.
He would come out of his "hide", under his ramp around 1-2 pm, lights come on around 8am. He would go to his ramp, and settle there for around a half hour, before moving up to the second level, at the furthest end of the tube. He'll stay there for around an hour, then move completely under the tube and the "heat" bulb, and stay there for around 20-40 minutes.. After that, he will go investigate his salad and roach "bowl" back on the bottom level. Sometimes he will eat his salad, others not, sometimes he will eat a roach, others not.. then he will go back under his ramp.. nap for a couple of hours, and repeat the behaviors above again, until the lights go off, around 8 pm.

Lady Annebelle was under a Mega. Hers is a modified Cross fire enclosure.
She will come right out, when all the lights come on.. and step up her brick/tile steps, and bask right at the top of the second level, closest to the MVB. That lasts around 10-15 minutes... then she scrambles back down, and launches into her salad... back up mid way on the tile/bricks to bask again for around 30 minutes.. then she will jump into her feeding container, eat what ever is there, back out again, up to the top, 15 more minutes give or take, then back into the middle "cave" or down to the bottom...
This repeats all day long.
 

ladyknite

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Most of what i read and see as people's description of thermoregulation describes more of going to a food dish or chasing bugs rather to moving to cool down. This isn't what i observe.

Suggestions to solidify findings and observations:
Acquire UVB meter in order to map UVB decline and corelate with behaviour.
This will provide a base reading of output at preferred basking height from source, cross reference with output to see whether vertical movements closer to source will show the same baseline output. This will then let us know the optimum desired UVB output for the specimens as shown by instinctual behaviour therefore providing valuable information on lighting theories. Any lighting source that will provide this baseline output can then be deemed as a suitable source of UVB and we are not locked in to manufacturer specifications and market economy.
Acquire a copy of Reptiles Australia Vol 6 Issue 2 as reference for NMBD article in relation to UVB and nutrition. (they will ship it to you Gina very interesting read)

Questions:
Do the specimens bask all they or do they thermoregulate at different parts of the enclosure?

I have a UVB meter. Actually, I'm on my 2nd one. I understand it's readings enough for my own use and comparison to incorporate in my notes in generalities, but lighting isn't my thing and i have a horrible time explaining it.

Thanks for the recommendation on the Reptiles Australia. Ordered.

Now, onto my observations. Both dragons in question will bask approximately 1-2 hours. Their main basking site is at the end of their enclosure, leaving another 5 feet of good gradient. There is another bulb in the middle of the enclosure, with another basking site, but it is much lower wattage and simply provides white light with temps of 100F at the usual height, and i don't have recorded the peak temp. I'm estimating you can up that to 110 at least. The UVB is a flourescent bulb, with an output radius upon start of approximately 15-18 inches for optimum coverage. This has been pretty standard in all the bulbs i've used. As the bulb has degraded however, that radius records weaker strengths until I get readings i don't understand. Since i'm not the lighting geek, I kinda had to learn to muddle my way thru. Sorry. Of course if you wanna take a trip, i'll be the student :p

Once my dragons move away from their basking sites, they dig in the sand usually. It's cool, damp and not lighted, except by ambient light. (the heat shut down during this cycle) They usually hang out for awhile and at some point get up to go eat. They eat their salads a entire bowl at a time. When they're ready for bugs, they choose what they want. But rarely do you see them eat both at the same setting. The hour or so after eating seems to be the time they are discontent with everything. No place seems to be where they want to be. But eventually, they Bask for a couple more hours, moving from one site to another, ending their day back to the cool sand.
 

Red Ink AUS

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That is exact natural instinctual behaviour Gina, bask for a few hours get the metabolism going, feed, bask, cool down as not to exhaust food nutrient too fast as instinctual they may not eat tomorrow. Get up bask to get the metabolism going, move around surveying the territory (seeming discontent) then settle down.
 

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