No heat or uvb light for one year

[Emilia Thuet]

Hello everyone so I last minute rescued a 11 month old bearded dragon from an owner who provided it nothing but a heat rock (I’ll add a picture of his old set up). I have him in a 20 gallon at the moment and trying to find him a new home because this was a very unplanned revue I just wanted to get him out of that situation. He has coil uvb at the moment and a regular basking bulb. I know he needs a T5 and 40 plus gallon tank blah, blah, blah; again I’m only going to keep him until I can find him a new owner who has all of that, I just thought some form of light is better than no light at all. My question is that obviously his growth is extremely stunted, he’s about 15 inches long and weighs around 184g (I am working to get his weight up don’t worry about that). Will he still grow to be roughly the size of a normal bearded dragon or will he forever be on the smaller side?

 

[BeardieLover<3]

Aww poor baby. I dont know about thr growth or anything, but i hope you find him a good home

 

[Sadie]

Hello everyone so I last minute rescued a 11 month old bearded dragon from an owner who provided it nothing but a heat rock (I’ll add a picture of his old set up). I have him in a 20 gallon at the moment and trying to find him a new home because this was a very unplanned revue I just wanted to get him out of that situation. He has coil uvb at the moment and a regular basking bulb. I know he needs a T5 and 40 plus gallon tank blah, blah, blah; again I’m only going to keep him until I can find him a new owner who has all of that, I just thought some form of light is better than no light at all. My question is that obviously his growth is extremely stunted, he’s about 15 inches long and weighs around 184g (I am working to get his weight up don’t worry about that). Will he still grow to be roughly the size of a normal bearded dragon or will he forever be on the smaller side?

That is pathetic of a tank ---- the coil is not doing him much good --- he needs a good UVB now my guess hes got MBD and as quick as you rescued him as quick as he could not be walking tomorrow -- are you taking basking temps w/ a digital probe thermometer -- you got the tank requirements correct for UVB and basking light--- but he needs those ASAP -- I dont know how fast your going to get rid of him but I would get that set up now and who ever takes him can pay for them when they get him -- his health is whats at stake here and the sooner he gets this the better -- just saying -- poor dragon --- if you need more help please ask -- as far as him growing more its possible but only time w/ tell and yes he needs a good diet to gain weigh -- a good weight for a adult dragon is around 300 + grams --

 

[Emilia Thuet]

That is pathetic of a tank ---- the coil is not doing him much good --- he needs a good UVB now my guess hes got MBD and as quick as you rescued him as quick as he could not be walking tomorrow -- are you taking basking temps w/ a digital probe thermometer -- you got the tank requirements correct for UVB and basking light--- but he needs those ASAP -- I dont know how fast your going to get rid of him but I would get that set up now and who ever takes him can pay for them when they get him -- his health is whats at stake here and the sooner he gets this the better -- just saying -- poor dragon --- if you need more help please ask -- as far as him growing more its possible but only time w/ tell and yes he needs a good diet to gain weigh -- a good weight for a adult dragon is around 300 + grams --

Surprisingly very little mbd, his joints are a little more flexible than they should be and his bottom jaw protrudes out a little bit more than his top jaw. But honestly it could be way worse, I’ll go to the pet shop and see if I can find a small tube uvb hood that will fit the 20 gallon he’s in now. Though he’s spent the past 2 days getting close and personal with his basking bulb. Poor thing probably never felt heat in his life and just wants as much as possible . And I’m already trying to wean him off of romaine lettuce so I’m doing a mixture of butternut squash, and a little bit off collard and dandelion greens with the lettuce and he ate that all today so tomorrow I’ll give him a larger amount of the 2 greens and less of the lettuce. He’s also pooped twice and it looks very healthy so that’s a plus

 

[Sadie]

Surprisingly very little mbd, his joints are a little more flexible than they should be and his bottom jaw protrudes out a little bit more than his top jaw. But honestly it could be way worse, I’ll go to the pet shop and see if I can find a small tube uvb hood that will fit the 20 gallon he’s in now. Though he’s spent the past 2 days getting close and personal with his basking bulb. Poor thing probably never felt heat in his life and just wants as much as possible . And I’m already trying to wean him off of romaine lettuce so I’m doing a mixture of butternut squash, and a little bit off collard and dandelion greens with the lettuce and he ate that all today so tomorrow I’ll give him a larger amount of the 2 greens and less of the lettuce. He’s also pooped twice and it looks very healthy so that’s a plus

He needs protein I would look at getting him some dubia roaches- calcium D 3 and vitamins-romaine is good -- you can use a T 8 on that 20 gallon-- it needs to be unobstructed and no clear plastic cover over the bulb - get the Reptisun bulb 10.0 T 8 distance approx 6-8 inches directly above the basking decor- No thrive bulbs please the Reptisun is the best on the market along w the Arcadia I am surprised he was even eating w/ no way to digest food-- I can help w/ insect websites if you need them

 

[Sadie]

Are you getting basking temps? W/ a digital probe thermometer?

 

[Emilia Thuet]

Basking temp was 95ish but he kept trying to get closer so I lifted his hammock so it’s around 99 I’ll probably put it down in a couple of days once he gets used to having heat. He’s been glued to the basking bulb all day for the past 2 days. And I have calcium, calcium with vitamin D and multivitamin which he will be getting all of them. I will be giving him crickets in a couple of days, I don’t want to shock his system with protein because I don’t know what his organs can handle. But he’s digesting the veggies well and hasn’t had any diarrhea so I’m happy about that. I just hope he grows a bit and if not at least he’s fun sized

Are you getting basking temps? W/ a digital probe thermometer?

 

[Sadie]

Basking temp was 95ish but he kept trying to get closer so I lifted his hammock so it’s around 99 I’ll probably put it down in a couple of days once he gets used to having heat. He’s been glued to the basking bulb all day for the past 2 days. And I have calcium, calcium with vitamin D and multivitamin which he will be getting all of them. I will be giving him crickets in a couple of days, I don’t want to shock his system with protein because I don’t know what his organs can handle. But he’s digesting the veggies well and hasn’t had any diarrhea so I’m happy about that. I just hope he grows a bit and if not at least he’s fun sized

Ok so the 99 is good --- I would introduce the crickets for him -- he does need the protein --

 

[Beardomania]

Will he still grow to be roughly the size of a normal bearded dragon or will he forever be on the smaller side?

Bearded dragons typically stop growing at 18 months but I have heard reports of severely stunted dragons undergoing a growth spurt at 3 years old when suddenly offered abundant nutrition. At 11 months, I am very optimistic he can hit another spurt to bring his size up. If he has truly had no heat and no UVB for a year (which I doubt because he should be in much worse condition and also, at 11 months, it means that he has never had either, which shouldn't be possible for a baby dragon to grow), then he has amazing genetics to be at the size he's at. He should be fed multiple times a day as much as he will eat on a protein-heavy insect rich diet. Crickets have the largest parasite risk but other than that, no issues. I've found that to fatten a dragon up very quickly, pieces of cooked chicken and shrimp are quite effective if s/he will eat them.

 

[Emilia Thuet]

Bearded dragons typically stop growing at 18 months but I have heard reports of severely stunted dragons undergoing a growth spurt at 3 years old when suddenly offered abundant nutrition. At 11 months, I am very optimistic he can hit another spurt to bring his size up. If he has truly had no heat and no UVB for a year (which I doubt because he should be in much worse condition and also, at 11 months, it means that he has never had either, which shouldn't be possible for a baby dragon to grow), then he has amazing genetics to be at the size he's at. He should be fed multiple times a day as much as he will eat on a protein-heavy insect rich diet. Crickets have the largest parasite risk but other than that, no issues. I've found that to fatten a dragon up very quickly, pieces of cooked chicken and shrimp are quite effective if s/he will eat them.

That’s great to hear! I hope he still has some growing left in him. And as shocking as it may sound, she did show me pictures of having him as a baby in the same tank... I don’t know how he did so well trust me I don’t want to believe it either but I think his saving grace was the fact that his previous owner fed him calcium powder with vitamin d daily. Because I don’t know, I truly just don’t know. But thank you for the chicken and shrimp idea, I’ll try and see if he likes any of those, he has gained 4 grams since I’ve had him and his body has been handling the veggies well so I’m going to give him some protein tomorrow and see how his body handles that.

 

[Jrodkw]

For a year without lighting, I'm surprised he looks as good as he does honestly.

 

[Beardomania]

For a year without lighting, I'm surprised he looks as good as he does honestly.

So we actually know surprisingly little about reptiles and their lighting/dietary requirements. We supposedly "know" that turtles and tortoises need UVB to develop strong shells but I've known people to raise turtles in bins with an inch of water and never any calcium, multivitamin, or UVB and they grow up fine. I've also heard the story of a tortoise who escaped his enclosure and lived in a massive house bordering on a mansion for 10 years to be later discovered alive and well (during the owner's relocation) although very stunted in size. I asked if they had edible house plants kept at floor level and they said no. His source of food and water are unknown to this day much less UVB.

If this story is true, and I doubt that it is, then it basically means that a baby bearded dragon can grow for 1 year at a somewhat slower than normal rate without any UVB. The purpose of UVB exposure is to create vitamin D3 which is needed to absorb calcium and some people believe that it cannot be dietarily supplemented because it would be digested but rather it needs to be produced in the skin and enter the bloodstream directly. If this story is true, it would be strong evidence against that theory and it would make basic bearded dragon survival care much cheaper and easier.

But once again, I really don't think it's true. I think something got lost in translation and the lizard did indeed get UVB either from a past owner who just bought the lighting that the pet store recommended not knowing it provided UVB or by leaving it near an open window for extended periods without connecting that that, under the correct circumstances, is providing UVB despite not having a dedicated UVB bulb.

 

[Emilia Thuet]

So we actually know surprisingly little about reptiles and their lighting/dietary requirements. We supposedly "know" that turtles and tortoises need UVB to develop strong shells but I've known people to raise turtles in bins with an inch of water and never any calcium, multivitamin, or UVB and they grow up fine. I've also heard the story of a tortoise who escaped his enclosure and lived in a massive house bordering on a mansion for 10 years to be later discovered alive and well (during the owner's relocation) although very stunted in size. I asked if they had edible house plants kept at floor level and they said no. His source of food and water are unknown to this day much less UVB.

If this story is true, and I doubt that it is, then it basically means that a baby bearded dragon can grow for 1 year at a somewhat slower than normal rate without any UVB. The purpose of UVB exposure is to create vitamin D3 which is needed to absorb calcium and some people believe that it cannot be dietarily supplemented because it would be digested but rather it needs to be produced in the skin and enter the bloodstream directly. If this story is true, it would be strong evidence against that theory and it would make basic bearded dragon survival care much cheaper and easier.

But once again, I really don't think it's true. I think something got lost in translation and the lizard did indeed get UVB either from a past owner who just bought the lighting that the pet store recommended not knowing it provided UVB or by leaving it near an open window for extended periods without connecting that that, under the correct circumstances, is providing UVB despite not having a dedicated UVB bulb.

Fair I am not going against you, you are 100% correct and I do not doubt you, while I don't rescue many bearded dragons this little one isn’t my first and I’m well read up on their care. So trust me it was shocking to hear this and I didn’t want to believe her at first. But he could have entered a state of brumation to lower his chances of contracting severe mbd, by lowering his metabolic rate. My other bearded dragon Cleopatra was fed monthly for 11 years and only had a weak basking bulb a foot and a half over her and she just as mbd in the fingers on her front paws. Not even in her jaw or anything, reptiles are unique creates and definitely have unique was of surviving, I do know the lady had no light on him since he was a month old (when he got him from the pet store). She sadly is dealing with substance abuse so she isn’t all there but seemed genuine in all her answers and was devastated after hearing that she wasn’t giving him proper care, she did love the guy and did do some research when it came to his diet. I am still in touch with her so let me know if you want me to ask her any questions.

 

[Beardomania]

Fair I am not going against you, you are 100% correct and I do not doubt you, while I don't rescue many bearded dragons this little one isn’t my first and I’m well read up on their care. So trust me it was shocking to hear this and I didn’t want to believe her at first. But he could have entered a state of brumation to lower his chances of contracting severe mbd, by lowering his metabolic rate. My other bearded dragon Cleopatra was fed monthly for 11 years and only had a weak basking bulb a foot and a half over her and she just as mbd in the fingers on her front paws. Not even in her jaw or anything, reptiles are unique creates and definitely have unique was of surviving, I do know the lady had no light on him since he was a month old (when he got him from the pet store). She sadly is dealing with substance abuse so she isn’t all there but seemed genuine in all her answers and was devastated after hearing that she wasn’t giving him proper care, she did love the guy and did do some research when it came to his diet. I am still in touch with her so let me know if you want me to ask her any questions.

There is no such thing as entering brumation to lower chances of MBD. Who told you it works like that? A bearded dragon cannot brumate for 11 years but they are very tough creatures that continue to amaze people with their abilities to survive poor care and rebound from the brink of death when rescued.

The thing with this beardie is that firstly baby dragons don't brumate and also, baby dragons are growing so they are continuously adding calcium to enlarge their bones. So while a healthy adult dragon can survive neglect by slowly drawing upon the stores that he has in his body and his bones delaying his death by wasting away, a growing dragon cannot because not only can he not rely on burning those stores, he has to be accumulating them in order to grow. In other words, whatever was done to that dragon, the fact that he grew from a hatchling to 15 inches proves that it wasn't all that wrong, despite being less than ideal. So either a person on substance abuse just couldn't get the facts straight, or we found out something new about a bearded dragon's ability to use dietary vitamin D3.

 

[Emilia Thuet]

There is no such thing as entering brumation to lower chances of MBD. Who told you it works like that? A bearded dragon cannot brumate for 11 years but they are very tough creatures that continue to amaze people with their abilities to survive poor care and rebound from the brink of death when rescued.

The thing with this beardie is that firstly baby dragons don't brumate and also, baby dragons are growing so they are continuously adding calcium to enlarge their bones. So while a healthy adult dragon can survive neglect by slowly drawing upon the stores that he has in his body and his bones delaying his death by wasting away, a growing dragon cannot because not only can he not rely on burning those stores, he has to be accumulating them in order to grow. In other words, whatever was done to that dragon, the fact that he grew from a hatchling to 15 inches proves that it wasn't all that wrong, despite being less than ideal. So either a person on substance abuse just couldn't get the facts straight, or we found out something new about a bearded dragon's ability to use dietary vitamin D3.

Darling you're not getting my point but yes whatever you say. I meant a brumation like state where they lower their metabolic rate, thus conserving energy. Because he was not getting proper heat, it is very likely this happened to him, where his metabolic rate was lowered, just like with Cleo or with any other reptile. I never said you were wrong, but instances do happen, because while Cleo did not contract severe MBD, another bearded dragon that I recently rescued did, and he had the same basking bulb as Cleo for 8 years. It all depends on the dragon luv, I'm just happy that the little guy may still have a chance at growing. Thanks for the help

 

[Skybug]

He looks pretty good for being so neglected (imo) im no expert (ive only had my beardie for a year n a half, and im trying to learn all i can) i have heard stories of mbd being stopped and reversed to a certain extent, to me he looks like a juvenile(but this could be just cause hes stunted) its good hes only a year old (they get alot of their girth in year 2)(so maybe the damage to his joints will be minimal)(him being underweight probably helped too) and I definitely think him being in brumation could of stopped/slowed the mbd rate, look up animal1guy on utube and watch his “pheniox” series, she was neglected with no heat, no uvb , in winter for like a year, he said in his video he believed since winter came (making her brumate) this is probably what saved her, and she ended up laying 30+ eggs after he rescued her.

 

[Beardomania]

Darling you're not getting my point but yes whatever you say. I meant a brumation like state where they lower their metabolic rate, thus conserving energy.

I'm not getting your point because I've never heard of such an ability. I've never heard of a "brumation like state" that isn't brumation for beardies and I've never heard that beardies can do this to avoid MBD. Are you guessing this or have you read this somewhere? If you've read it somewhere, could you like the evidence so we can all read and learn?

Because he was not getting proper heat, it is very likely this happened to him, where his metabolic rate was lowered, just like with Cleo or with any other reptile.

Darling, you're not getting my point. In order for a beardie to grow, it has to increase the calcium in its bones; the rate is not the point. Beardies cannot do this without vitamin D3 so he either got it from UVB or from his diet. My point is that if he got it only from his diet, that is a scientifically significant finding because prior to this, no one knew for sure if dietary D3 can be utilized or is sufficient to sustain health alone.

I never said you were wrong,

I don't see any conflict here so I don't even know what this is attached to. I'm just pointing out the possibility of a significant finding. I'm not defensive or taking any offense to anything you're saying.

but instances do happen, because while Cleo did not contract severe MBD, another bearded dragon that I recently rescued did, and he had the same basking bulb as Cleo for 8 years.

Well, dragons can be genetically different just like people; some people will quickly get diabetes or overweight on a poor diet while others can maintain their health on the same diet for years or indefinitely.

Also, if they were kept on the same brand of bulb rather than the same actual bulb, it's possible that one was defective and not emitting nearly as much UVB as the other.

It all depends on the dragon luv, I'm just happy that the little guy may still have a chance at growing. Thanks for the help

I'm just here to discuss possibilities. I'm not arguing or getting offended; I don't know where you picked that up. I'm always happy to hear crazy outlier stories like your and the tortoise in the mansion because these really help us further understand the abilities of reptiles that we would not have learned from simply providing them by-the-book optimal care.

 

[Jrodkw]

So we actually know surprisingly little about reptiles and their lighting/dietary requirements. We supposedly "know" that turtles and tortoises need UVB to develop strong shells but I've known people to raise turtles in bins with an inch of water and never any calcium, multivitamin, or UVB and they grow up fine. I've also heard the story of a tortoise who escaped his enclosure and lived in a massive house bordering on a mansion for 10 years to be later discovered alive and well (during the owner's relocation) although very stunted in size. I asked if they had edible house plants kept at floor level and they said no. His source of food and water are unknown to this day much less UVB.

If this story is true, and I doubt that it is, then it basically means that a baby bearded dragon can grow for 1 year at a somewhat slower than normal rate without any UVB. The purpose of UVB exposure is to create vitamin D3 which is needed to absorb calcium and some people believe that it cannot be dietarily supplemented because it would be digested but rather it needs to be produced in the skin and enter the bloodstream directly. If this story is true, it would be strong evidence against that theory and it would make basic bearded dragon survival care much cheaper and easier.

But once again, I really don't think it's true. I think something got lost in translation and the lizard did indeed get UVB either from a past owner who just bought the lighting that the pet store recommended not knowing it provided UVB or by leaving it near an open window for extended periods without connecting that that, under the correct circumstances, is providing UVB despite not having a dedicated UVB bulb.

That would make sense. Reptiles can usually adapt pretty well in most situations...hence why they've been around for way longer than we have lol.

 

[Emilia Thuet]

He looks pretty good for being so neglected (imo) im no expert (ive only had my beardie for a year n a half, and im trying to learn all i can) i have heard stories of mbd being stopped and reversed to a certain extent, to me he looks like a juvenile(but this could be just cause hes stunted) its good hes only a year old (they get alot of their girth in year 2)(so maybe the damage to his joints will be minimal)(him being underweight probably helped too) and I definitely think him being in brumation could of stopped/slowed the mbd rate, look up animal1guy on utube and watch his “pheniox” series, she was neglected with no heat, no uvb , in winter for like a year, he said in his video he believed since winter came (making her brumate) this is probably what saved her, and she ended up laying 30+ eggs after he rescued her.

I know!!!! I follow animal1guy on Instagram and I did watch her story she is such a cute little beardie. I was thinking that something similar could have happened to this guy, it’s truly incredible what reptiles can handle or do to try and survive.

 

[Emilia Thuet]

I'm not getting your point because I've never heard of such an ability. I've never heard of a "brumation like state" that isn't brumation for beardies and I've never heard that beardies can do this to avoid MBD. Are you guessing this or have you read this somewhere? If you've read it somewhere, could you like the evidence so we can all read and learn?

Darling, you're not getting my point. In order for a beardie to grow, it has to increase the calcium in its bones; the rate is not the point. Beardies cannot do this without vitamin D3 so he either got it from UVB or from his diet. My point is that if he got it only from his diet, that is a scientifically significant finding because prior to this, no one knew for sure if dietary D3 can be utilized or is sufficient to sustain health alone.

I don't see any conflict here so I don't even know what this is attached to. I'm just pointing out the possibility of a significant finding. I'm not defensive or taking any offense to anything you're saying.

Well, dragons can be genetically different just like people; some people will quickly get diabetes or overweight on a poor diet while others can maintain their health on the same diet for years or indefinitely.

Also, if they were kept on the same brand of bulb rather than the same actual bulb, it's possible that one was defective and not emitting nearly as much UVB as the other.

I'm just here to discuss possibilities. I'm not arguing or getting offended; I don't know where you picked that up. I'm always happy to hear crazy outlier stories like your and the tortoise in the mansion because these really help us further understand the abilities of reptiles that we would not have learned from simply providing them by-the-book optimal care.

To end this here because I’m getting tired of your well organized point by point argument or not argument whatever makes you sleep at night. The difference between brumation and hibernation is that an animal is not dormant and can remain awake or active in brumation. But their metabolic rates slow down as well as their respiratory rate and digestive tract. All these systems are slow long down so that they can conserve energy and not die of starvation. This is what brumation is so that when they are spending time out and away from the sun and not getting uvb they won’t become susceptible to diseases. A reptiles metabolic, respiratory and digestive system also slow down when they are not getting enough heat to make all these systems work properly because Mother Nature decided to play the devil’s advocate and say “let’s give these creatures the same systems as mammals that work and function in the same way BUT let’s make them cold blooded and have them figure out how to stay warm so their bodies can function properly”. Reptiles need heat and when they don’t get it their bodily systems start to slow down as if they were in brumation. So this beardie who is under a year old may have not brumated but could have exhibited the same symptoms of it because he wasn’t getting enough heat. And if you want your “proof” google “what happens when a reptile gets cold”. Now I wish you a fun time reading because me and Cleo have a tea party to attend to in the park today, and your company and opinion are needed as much as my ex’s. Good day luv and happy researching