Looking the other way

[Red Ink AUS]

Hi guys,

Something caught my eye in my travels on the web and I thought i would put it out to you guys as well.
A while back Nov 2009 a man was caught in LAX smuggling some Australian reptiles by strapping them to his chest. This was being discussed somewhere and some of the responses from peeps stateside shocked me a little bit.

It seems the man was well known in parts of the industry and generally was perceived as a "nice guy". Some people where even offering sympathies towards him and even justifying his actions as "good for the hobby.... a chance to work with rare animals" (absolute crap IMO as it's plainly for the money).

Now these people were obviously turning a blind eye to the fact that IMO nothing but a scumbag wildlife smuggler just because they have dealt with him or know him and think he is a nice guy.

Now this begs me question to:
"How far are you willing to turn a blind eye to acquire something rare in this hobby?"
"I didn't smuggle it, it was already here...."

Would you guys purchase a P.barbata from me if I can get them there?
Would you buy a shingleback from me?
(Insert pretty much all Australian reptiles rare to the hobby)
Would you buy a species that is CITES protected even though it's your absolute dream reptile?

I have often pondered this myself just for my own thoughts, offered a corn snake would i take it?
Would i buy a chameleon given the chance?

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

Francis,
I like where your going with this. I can say I honestly would not buy something not allowed in the country. However My opinion is an educated one.
I can promise you that the average person going to a show or buying online just doesnt know or care where it comes from.

 

[Vesta]

I care!!! No grey areas when it comes to stuff like that for me!!!

 

[Craiger]

Not only do I think it's wrong and wouldn't buy it for that reason alone, I'd be too afraid of getting caught myself. I like to show off the pets that I have. Owning an illegal specimen would keep me from being able to do this.

I'm glad he got caught.

 

[Red Ink AUS]

Ahhh see now the point of "legallity" is obscured when it is in the US already. As in it is illegal to take Australain animals out of Australia it has been since the late 70s we know that. However where things get muddled when they are already there or miracoulously "pop up" after border closure. All Australian geckos available to you guys there have no doubt popped up after border closure, they have already been established there for a while so you can know call them generational captive bred.

The question would be for "new" species that where not there before. Where did they come from?
If all of a sudden there was a breeder with P.microlepedias (Kimberly bearded dragon) over there for example and have them for sale would you purchase them?

*I use the kimberly BD as an example as i know they are not available anywhere on the planet not even OZ.

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

No I would not.
But My previous point still stands. Shows really don't police what hits the tables. Someone will still buy them and probably doesn't know its illegal.

 

[Craiger]

My answer is still no. I wouldn't buy one.

 

[Vesta]

Nope. Me either!!! Wrong is still wrong no matter how it gets twisted,

 

[ladyknite]

Very interesting question Francis.

I understand the question to be “Would I buy the illegal import?”

Honestly, yes I would. But let me give you an honest explanation. It’s not that I feel I have that right, or am entitled because it’s already here, but because of what I believe is right in a way of speaking. I have two species that are currently under import restrictions and always have been. Somehow they made it into this country (and no I didn't bring them). I acquired them and registered them with my local DNR who reported them to the CDC's Division of Global Migration and Quarantine Office. Legally I am permitted to provide care for them and issue notes on my observations. If at any time I cannot keep them anymore, I have to report that to officials. I don’t think I am the ONLY one that can care for these animals, but I do believe I handled it in the best manner possible. Does that make it right? I’m on the line about that.

For your average reptile keeper, the “new thing” on the market isn’t an affordable thing. At least not here. They’re least likely to spend the $4,000.00 on that “Kimberly Dragon” than the person trying to get ahead of the breeding market. Hence………..why the PB is virtually nowhere to be found in the US.

As for it being illegal. Illegal is to import. Once it's here, it's muddled as Francis says.

Now, as wrong as everyone thinks it is........consider the options not taken. I don't breed or sell these animals. I don't make anything from them. I observe them and provide that information to the agent at the DNR that passes it on to someone else. I don't necessarily like the fact that I was involved in illegal importation, but once i found out, this was the wisest choice i feel i could have made. And yes, I did know before the deal was sealed.

 

[crypticdragons]

I can promise you that the average person going to a show or buying online just doesnt know or care where it comes from.

And this is the problem with this hobby.

As to answer Francis I can honestly say I do not know. I doubt I will ever be in the situation to have to answer this for myself but I currently can not say.

 

[beardielover17]

*puts flame suit on*

I'm kinda on the fence about this to be honest. I don't condone illegally importing animals but purchasing them after they have already been brought over, is a different story. I could be wrong on this but once the animals are brought out of the wild, they can never go back so what happens to them then once they are brought over to another country? (Once again correct me if I'm wrong). I wouldn't want them to be in the hands of an irresponsible keeper though so I don't think that just anyone could buy them
although there is no way to know that really.

Example being my future Aussie Frilled. I personally don't know if the original stock she came from was brought here legally or not but her bloodlines have been here for a couple generations already and they are considered a "legal" pet here. I didn't like the fact someone may have smuggled her great great great....grand parents here but there are many of them here now. I have been caring for a NG Frilled for years and spent just as many years reading on Aussies and joining the forums of OZ and learning how they keep them so I could be prepared for the off chance I actually came across one and just for something to learn if I never even got one.

 

[Craiger]

Very interesting question Francis.

I understand the question to be “Would I buy the illegal import?”

Honestly, yes I would. But let me give you an honest explanation. It’s not that I feel I have that right, or am entitled because it’s already here, but because of what I believe is right in a way of speaking. I have two species that are currently under import restrictions and always have been. Somehow they made it into this country (and no I didn't bring them). I acquired them and registered them with my local DNR who reported them to the CDC's Division of Global Migration and Quarantine Office. Legally I am permitted to provide care for them and issue notes on my observations. If at any time I cannot keep them anymore, I have to report that to officials. I don’t think I am the ONLY one that can care for these animals, but I do believe I handled it in the best manner possible. Does that make it right? I’m on the line about that.

For your average reptile keeper, the “new thing” on the market isn’t an affordable thing. At least not here. They’re least likely to spend the $4,000.00 on that “Kimberly Dragon” than the person trying to get ahead of the breeding market. Hence………..why the PB is virtually nowhere to be found in the US.

As for it being illegal. Illegal is to import. Once it's here, it's muddled as Francis says.

Now, as wrong as everyone thinks it is........consider the options not taken. I don't breed or sell these animals. I don't make anything from them. I observe them and provide that information to the agent at the DNR that passes it on to someone else. I don't necessarily like the fact that I was involved in illegal importation, but once i found out, this was the wisest choice i feel i could have made. And yes, I did know before the deal was sealed.

Okay....this sheds a whole new light on this for me. See...I think Gina bought it for all the right reasons. I think she knew before sealing the deal that she would contact proper authorities about this animal being in the states. Evidently she knew it was illegal to have it, here, and figured purchasing it, herself, would keep it from falling into the wrong hands....hoping there were no others in the states. And by taking it in and reporting it to the proper authorities, if this WAS the only one present in the states, the line would die with it and chances of it showing up again would be slim.

Personally, if I were in this situation and had the money to purchase such a specimen, I would probably do the same thing....but only because it was the right thing to do. And only if I had the ability to provide it a proper home. If there were any questions or doubts, then I'd have to pass on it, but I'd darn sure try my best to get it in the hands of the right individual....and make sure it was reported to proper authorities.

Okay, Francis, you really got me thinking on this one....and I've changed my mind.

There's a difference between purchasing an illegal specimen out of ignorance, purchasing one with the intent to do the right thing, and purchasing one out of sheer greed and impure motives.

 

[ladyknite]

Okay....this sheds a whole new light on this for me. See...I think Gina bought it for all the right reasons. I think she knew before sealing the deal that she would contact proper authorities about this animal being in the states. Evidently she knew it was illegal to have it, here, and figured purchasing it, herself, would keep it from falling into the wrong hands....hoping there were no others in the states. And by taking it in and reporting it to the proper authorities, if this WAS the only one present in the states, the line would die with it and chances of it showing up again would be slim.

you got some mad crazy faith in me dude. ;D

honestly, i bought them because i thought they were so kewl. I'd never seen them before and I was truly in awe. I'm one of those people that know the consequences of my actions before i "commit the crime", and honestly didn't care if i got caught. 24 hours realizing i had no earthly idea how to house or care for them made me understand i was gonna destroy the one thing i thought was so bloody kewl. Common sense took hold and since there was nobody to turn to, I contacted a friend i thought could get me information. He's a forest ranger, and put me in touch with the guy at the DNR. Within a couple of days, they provided me with the basic information i needed to start molding husbandry, they investigated my home, the way these animals were kept and I was "policed" for about a year. I guess in time, i proved myself, and they eased up. Although I'm fairly certain the "endangered" tag on their heads hasn't.

My point being, I consider myself to be pretty honest and fair. Yet I did something I knew to be perfectly illegal and sneaky just because i couldn't resist. The result worked out well........but i was quick to admit i didn't know what i was doing, nor did anybody i know of........so i had to turn somewhere. Which meant i had to come clean in what i was involved in. Not a pleasant thing to do. I could have been charged with quite a penalty. But maybe because i went to them, they found some sort of understanding in what i was doing. Who knows now......

If i had to do it again.....would i buy the illegal import? I dunno........maybe


I never intended to distribute these guys. And i don't regret my decision.

 

[Craiger]

Okay....this sheds a whole new light on this for me. See...I think Gina bought it for all the right reasons. I think she knew before sealing the deal that she would contact proper authorities about this animal being in the states. Evidently she knew it was illegal to have it, here, and figured purchasing it, herself, would keep it from falling into the wrong hands....hoping there were no others in the states. And by taking it in and reporting it to the proper authorities, if this WAS the only one present in the states, the line would die with it and chances of it showing up again would be slim.

you got some mad crazy faith in me dude. ;D

honestly, i bought them because i thought they were so kewl. I'd never seen them before and I was truly in awe. I'm one of those people that know the consequences of my actions before i "commit the crime", and honestly didn't care if i got caught. 24 hours realizing i had no earthly idea how to house or care for them made me understand i was gonna destroy the one thing i thought was so bloody kewl. Common sense took hold and since there was nobody to turn to, I contacted a friend i thought could get me information. He's a forest ranger, and put me in touch with the guy at the DNR. Within a couple of days, they provided me with the basic information i needed to start molding husbandry, they investigated my home, the way these animals were kept and I was "policed" for about a year. I guess in time, i proved myself, and they eased up. Although I'm fairly certain the "endangered" tag on their heads hasn't.

My point being, I consider myself to be pretty honest and fair. Yet I did something I knew to be perfectly illegal and sneaky just because i couldn't resist. The result worked out well........but i was quick to admit i didn't know what i was doing, nor did anybody i know of........so i had to turn somewhere. Which meant i had to come clean in what i was involved in. Not a pleasant thing to do. I could have been charged with quite a penalty. But maybe because i went to them, they found some sort of understanding in what i was doing. Who knows now......

If i had to do it again.....would i buy the illegal import? I dunno........maybe


I never intended to distribute these guys. And i don't regret my decision.

LOL! Okay....this sheds a whole "other" light on it. Never would I have the cahoneys to do what you did....regardless of how bad I wanted something.

Boy was I way off on predicting your scenario....guess that's why they don't call me Nostradamus. Oh well...it was nice to imagine while it lasted. ;D

The picture I painted would still be the only reason I'd do it. Would it be a benefit due to my desire to have them? Yes. But doing the right thing trumps my desire....and I'd turn them over to somebody else if I felt it was the right thing to do.

 

[ladyknite]

When you're nose deep in a puddle of water, you'll be surprised what you'll do to keep yourself afloat. Lol

Just let me reiterate........it didn't take cahoneys to do anything i did. I cared more about the animal than i did what would happen to me and that was my drive. I would love to think I'd have that same decision when i was 20, but i doubt it. it all just happened to fall into place. I discovered value where money wasn't concerned, and earned an opportunity i couldn't have gotten elsewhere.

I'm still not sure that makes it right. But could they have survived exportation back to Jordan?

 

[Red Ink AUS]

Alright let's lok at this from another side then we'll leave the legalities alone for a minute as that is a beurucratic nightmare designed for us to never understand and for them to have total control over.

Hypothetically.....

Scenario 1
Gina breeds these reps that she has, offers them to you knowing that they are not exactly above board what do you do? Gina is a great person and all of us have full trust in her she knows her way around reptiles and we know these animals were well taken cared of. Can we justify her actions?

Scenario 2
I turn up in the US for a big forum meet in great in person that we are having for this forum. I'm a nice guy (at least most of the time lol) and I'd like to think you guys think the same of me. Someone that knows his way around reptiles and can be trusted. We're all friends after all.
Now I turn up with a big bag of goodies for the kids just like Santa. Do you trust me and it's ok cause I'm really a "nice guy"?

In the bag I have:
4 pairs of shinglebacks
8 pairs of P. barbatas
6 pairs of P. henrylawsonii
4 pairs of V. tistis orientalis
trio of pure blood NT frillnecks
6 fertile eggs of V. varius
4 pairs of blackhead pythons
4 pairs of pure locality specific Simpson dessert patternless white P.vitticeps
Oviously these things are destined for the gallows back in OZ as once their out, they never come back in.....

(man that's a heavy bag of goodies lol)

And say I need to get rid of these things anybody interested?
What do we do?

 

[Craiger]

Scenaro 1 - I'm not sure what "exactly above board' means. Can you explain?

Scenario 2 - I run away....and wonder if I can trust you, now.

 

[Red Ink AUS]

Scenaro 1 - I'm not sure what "exactly above board' means. Can you explain?

Scenario 2 - I run away....and wonder if I can trust you, now.

Scenario 1 - Well Gina already sated that her's are restricted and probably should'nt be bred from but she did, do we trust her and buy them?

 

[beardielover17]

Scenario 1 - Tough call can't really decide on that one. Would it be her 1st and last time breeding them?

Scenario 2 - I would probably buy them but never breed them. Reason for buying would be that they aren't allowed back to OZ without the death penalty and I couldn't let that happen.

 

[Craiger]

Scenario 1 - Well Gina already sated that her's are restricted and probably should'nt be bred from but she did, do we trust her and buy them?

Oh....geez. If I know they're restricted and shouldn't be bred, I run away from her, too....but not before we have a nice talk. I've yet to meet her in person.

Honestly, I do my best to hold my standards high. One of my biggest downfalls is speeding...but other than that, I'm about as clean as they come. I buy all my movies and won't even download songs illegally off the internet. I buy every last one of them $0.99 at a time (if I don't buy the whole CD, that is).