Is it instinct?????

[ladyknite]

Francis and his "study" sessions got me thinking about something. Before you say "oh oh"....lemme explain.

I'm curious to know what people think and why they come to those conclusions.

Considering our animals are captive bred and raised, do we interpret their actions (for the most part) as being instinctual or not? If they are interpreted to be instinct, can they reasonably fathom what they need and what they don't? (not implying they won't accept what is forced upon them) If their actions are not based on their prime instinct to live and survive, do we consider this a natural captive based "learned" behaviorism? Will a dragon knowingly cause it's self harm or is it too "dumb" (for lack of a better word) to know better?

 

[Craiger]

I'm not afraid to say, "I don't have a freakin' clue". Honestly, most days I like to think they're instinctual. For example, how does a captive bred beardie that's never before seen a bird know to immediately look up and get freaked out when they hear one? I mean, if they've never heard nor seen one, how do they even know they're to be afraid of them?

I think this goes along with how they act when they see other beardies, too. Frodo puts on quite a display when he sees Sam. But....when a beardie has never before seen another beardie, how do they know to react like that? For that matter, how do they know they're a beardie themselves? To me, it seems like it has to be instinctual.

I don't think they're dumb at all. Quite the contrary.

 

[staylor]

I think some things are instinctual but I understand the "dumb" part as well. They will eat anything, even if it can kill them and this is the "dumb" part for me. Do they not eat things in the wild that kill them or do they know to stay away from it? I think some are learned behaviors and some are instinct.

 

[ladyknite]

Valid enough.

Do they not eat things in the wild that kill them

i don't believe fireflies are native of OZ. From my understanding, they're only in certain areas. Maybe that would account for that portion.

 

[li]

LK I am never too sure about this. My feeling is that we have so adjusted their "normal instinctual behavior" to be behavior that is good for us to put them in tanks. I think like any other living creature they evolve or at the minimum learn to exist in what we have given them. Similar to dogs....we have created "lap dogs" that could never exist the way that their ancestors did in the wild without many years of evolving back to that.

But that is just my opinion and like Craig, not sure I have a freaken clue either, lol!

 

[staylor]

I guess my question is, is there things in Oz that if they eat can kill them and if so how do they know not to eat them?

 

[Craiger]

I guess my question is, is there things in Oz that if they eat can kill them and if so how do they know not to eat them?

Bubba's sitting next to cousin Joe Bob. Bubba decides the plant in front of him looks tasty...so he eats it. He dies. Cousin Joe Bob learns not to eat that plant.

 

[Vesta]

Exactly Craiger!! I believe it is instinct too!! I also know that they have adapted to captivity. They want to get in their enclosures because it is a safe place for them. They know we are the ones who will bring them thier food so they look to us to bring it!! The interesting thing about yosh is when I bring him outside, his greatest joy is to spot a bug, catch it and eat it!! He is finicky about eating in his enclosure but I have to really watch him outside because he will try to eat anything. He nmakes a beeline for the Honeysuckle every time!!!

I think they are really smart. If Yo wants some extra attention he will 'FALL' off his log and lay there on his back until I come and get him. He may not do that for months and then do it 3 times in one day so I'll make a fuss!!

 

[zebraflavencs]

I'll have to also say, I am not for certain.
However, everyone has made valid points about reactions to situations, that a captive bred animal, May NOT have been exposed to before in it's life.

So, I suggest that it is possible for some instincts to exist in captive bred species,while some may not remain, or possibly are "forgotten".

Janie

 

[staylor]

I saw all too well about instinct last night when Oscar attacked Slyders viv and Slyder waved. I think they keep the wild traits but since they are captive they are just dormant.

I guess my question is, is there things in Oz that if they eat can kill them and if so how do they know not to eat them?

Bubba's sitting next to cousin Joe Bob. Bubba decides the plant in front of him looks tasty...so he eats it. He dies. Cousin Joe Bob learns not to eat that plant.

Thank you for this lesson Craig. I am sure they would learn that way

 

[northface75]

they dont have fireflies in AUS according to the article I read about fireflies killing beardies. its why they dont have the instincts to not eat them. I'm sure francis will set us straight.

 

[Craiger]

I guess my question is, is there things in Oz that if they eat can kill them and if so how do they know not to eat them?

Bubba's sitting next to cousin Joe Bob. Bubba decides the plant in front of him looks tasty...so he eats it. He dies. Cousin Joe Bob learns not to eat that plant.

Thank you for this lesson Craig. I am sure they would learn that way
[/quote]

I was actually being facetious.....and not trying to be a smart-alec. Hope you didn't read it that way.

 

[staylor]

I was actually being facetious.....and not trying to be a smart-alec. Hope you didn't read it that way.
[/quote]

I know how you intended it. I laughed when I read it.

 

[t rex]

I saw all too well about instinct last night when Oscar attacked Slyders viv and Slyder waved. I think they keep the wild traits but since they are captive they are just dormant.

I guess my question is, is there things in Oz that if they eat can kill them and if so how do they know not to eat them?

Bubba's sitting next to cousin Joe Bob. Bubba decides the plant in front of him looks tasty...so he eats it. He dies. Cousin Joe Bob learns not to eat that plant.

Thank you for this lesson Craig. I am sure they would learn that way

but how long will it take them to learn it??...once, twice..over a matter or years??... :-\,
and what if he doesnt have a cousin called joe bob??.... ;D

 

[Red Ink AUS]

It would have to depend on the behaviour in question Gina, some would be instinctual as i personally do not believe that captivity would change this and some would be learned. This is displayed in humans as well, babies are born with instinctual behaviours before they acquire any learned ones.

In captivity there are behaviours that are for the lack of the better terms "seem dumb". I put this down to environmental the factors that would trigger a response (may or may not be there).

Instinctual behaviours would be for example digging, part of the dragons natural instincts, what would seem stupid to us is a dragon trying to dig through tiles. Well a dragon does not recognise tiles, that is something artificial that we have put in their environment that would inhibit their instinctual behaviours. Ever seen a dragon try and dig through rocks in it's enclosure?? I would say no, they instinctually recognise rocks as inpenetrable and hence don't try to dig through them (tiles are new and unknown, hence not part of the basic programing)

There are no fireflies in OZ, as to the Q of wether or not they eat things that would kill them the answer is yes. Not because they're dumb but because they are foreign and therefore not recognised as something potentially dangerous.

 

[ladyknite]

It would have to depend on the behaviour in question Gina, some would be instinctual as i personally do not believe that captivity would change this and some would be learned. This is displayed in humans as well, babies are born with instinctual behaviours before they acquire any learned ones.

In captivity there are behaviours that are for the lack of the better terms "seem dumb". I put this down to environmental the factors that would trigger a response (may or may not be there).

Instinctual behaviours would be for example digging, part of the dragons natural instincts, what would seem stupid to us is a dragon trying to dig through tiles. Well a dragon does not recognise tiles, that is something artificial that we have put in their environment that would inhibit their instinctual behaviours. Ever seen a dragon try and dig through rocks in it's enclosure?? I would say no, they instinctually recognise rocks as inpenetrable and hence don't try to dig through them (tiles are new and unknown, hence not part of the basic programing)

There are no fireflies in OZ, as to the Q of wether or not they eat things that would kill them the answer is yes. Not because they're dumb but because they are foreign and therefore not recognised as something potentially dangerous.

Thank you all for your opinions and thoughts.

Francis....you bring up interesting points and make me think.

I started an observation on instinct in 2008 to see if i could determine if there was any natural instinct other than predatory left in our animals. My observations took an unexpected turn due to what i initially observed, and i slightly rerouted my path. I'll post my observations within the week and i'd like your opinion on it. it's a low beat thing.......and definately out of my scope (due to the side tracking), but notable anyway you see it.

 

[Craiger]

It would have to depend on the behaviour in question Gina, some would be instinctual as i personally do not believe that captivity would change this and some would be learned. This is displayed in humans as well, babies are born with instinctual behaviours before they acquire any learned ones.

In captivity there are behaviours that are for the lack of the better terms "seem dumb". I put this down to environmental the factors that would trigger a response (may or may not be there).

Instinctual behaviours would be for example digging, part of the dragons natural instincts, what would seem stupid to us is a dragon trying to dig through tiles. Well a dragon does not recognise tiles, that is something artificial that we have put in their environment that would inhibit their instinctual behaviours. Ever seen a dragon try and dig through rocks in it's enclosure?? I would say no, they instinctually recognise rocks as inpenetrable and hence don't try to dig through them (tiles are new and unknown, hence not part of the basic programing)

There are no fireflies in OZ, as to the Q of wether or not they eat things that would kill them the answer is yes. Not because they're dumb but because they are foreign and therefore not recognised as something potentially dangerous.

Thank you all for your opinions and thoughts.

Francis....you bring up interesting points and make me think.

I started an observation on instinct in 2008 to see if i could determine if there was any natural instinct other than predatory left in our animals. My observations took an unexpected turn due to what i initially observed, and i slightly rerouted my path. I'll post my observations within the week and i'd like your opinion on it. it's a low beat thing.......and definately out of my scope (due to the side tracking), but notable anyway you see it.

Very interesting.....looking forward to what you have to share.

 

[Craiger]

I was actually being facetious.....and not trying to be a smart-alec. Hope you didn't read it that way.

I know how you intended it. I laughed when I read it.

Cool. I like to joke a lot, but have a rather serious side as well. I just don't want to blend the two and cause confusion. Glad I could provide a laugh....and hope it was needed.

 

[staylor]

I was actually being facetious.....and not trying to be a smart-alec. Hope you didn't read it that way.

I know how you intended it. I laughed when I read it.

Cool. I like to joke a lot, but have a rather serious side as well. I just don't want to blend the two and cause confusion. Glad I could provide a laugh....and hope it was needed.

I stay home with 2 kids and go to school for a nursing degree, laughs are always needed. I don't take anything serious, except where needed, life is too short to be serious all the time.