Bearded dragon not moving and lethargic

[Truff11]

Like the title states, he's very lethargic kinda just basks all day with his eyes closed (Droopy like).Appetite is non existent, I have had to force feed him all bugs just so he does not loose any weight. I'm giving him oral calcium as given to me by a vet for two weeks now and changed his uvb to a 10.0 instead of a 5.0 I had for four months. My concern is he has seemed to gotten worse since the vet visit two weeks prior. I'm worried it's pinworms or coccidia but he seems to be pooping fine with no runny poop just normal looking. He is about 50-55 grams and nearing 9 inches. Is that a normal weight and size distribution for his age? Basking temps are about 100-115 depending on where he is on the log. 70-75 on the cool side and warm side is about 80-90 degrees.

 

[xjailbreakx]

He very well might be brumating. Brumating is basically hibernation for beardies. If he hasn't been alive for very long then I would be concerned. But if he's almost or more than 1 year old I wouldn't worry.
I totally understand your concern, when my beardy went through his first brumation I thought he was dead, and was going to die. He never ate anything I put in there. I would recomend you put a small bowl with some collard greens or other veggies and just replace it daily and he will eat as he becomes hungry. Insects should be available to him but don't try to force feed him, disturbing their brumation will prolong the period they brumate for.
Google brumation and learn about it some more, it's unbelievably scary since you think he is dying but it is completely natural. Take some poop to the vet and have them inspect it for parasites as well, if he has parasites and now hes brumating it can be very bad for him. Let me know about any questions you have i'll follow the thread.

 

[xjailbreakx]

Also, make sure he has a coolspot in his enclosure, they don't like being in the sun all day. Imagine they are out in the wild preparing to fall asleep for 3 weeks, they want to feel secured. Even a old shipping box with a hole and 4 of the 8 flaps cut off would work.

 

[Janelle]

If he's nearing 9 inches, he is nowhere near large enough to brumate. You said the UVB is now a 10.0. Is it a t5 or a t8? Can you post pics of your setup?

 

[Truff11]

Yeah its a T5 HO 10.0 i have it fixed inside of the tank.

 

[BeardedHippy]

You have described the classic symptoms of brumation. As juveniles they dont fully brumate, but they do slow down, stop eating and sleep a lot. When mine were babies, the male slept for several weeks, waking once halfway through to have something to eat ,then off to sleep again. The female didnt sleep , just lay there all day in a lethargic stupor. After a month or so , they both just went back to their normal behaviour like nothing had happened.
Parasites can mimic these symptoms though, as said above, so always good to get that ruled out. It is probably not a good idea to force feed it as this is just part of a natural cycle. Your tank setup looks great by the way.
May I ask why he is on liquid calcium? was he not getting enough suppliments?

 

[Truff11]

You have described the classic symptoms of brumation. As juveniles they dont fully brumate, but they do slow down, stop eating and sleep a lot. When mine were babies, the male slept for several weeks, waking once halfway through to have something to eat ,then off to sleep again. The female didnt sleep , just lay there all day in a lethargic stupor. After a month or so , they both just went back to their normal behaviour like nothing had happened.
Parasites can mimic these symptoms though, as said above, so always good to get that ruled out. It is probably not a good idea to force feed it as this is just part of a natural cycle. Your tank setup looks great by the way.
May I ask why he is on liquid calcium? was he not getting enough suppliments?

He is only 4 months and I’m trying to make sure he has adequate nutrition. I doubt he is in brumation so early on, it just doesn’t seem plausible for his age. I get what you said on the slow down part, but he hasn’t been showing “normal” bearded dragon behaviors whatsoever. Zero activity and a very low stupor. He’s not even nearing a year he’s in the cusp of a baby/juvenile stage. Just worried that’s all and hope I can get him out of this as I feel somewhat responsible and I hate seeing him like this. I’m getting a fecal done as this is what I’m worried about. His poop is normal and regular so no impact ion. His appetite is nada... doesn’t eat at all. To answer your question on why he’s on liquid calcium is because I was using the wrong fluorescent. T5 HO 5.0 rather than the 10.0 and on top of fine mesh so little UVB was getting to him.

 

[BeardedHippy]

Hi, I know its disconcerting, but this really is normal. Mine were only 5 or 6 months when they went through it for the first time. Think of it as 'semi-brumation', what they go through before they have the body mass to fully brumate. Its a slow down of the metabolic rate. If you do a forum search you will find hundreds of posts from people who have had the same concern(maybe a dozen in the last month alone), the vast majority of which come through it naturally in their own time. If the fecal comes back negative, you will know that is what this is.
I dont think you should be worried at this point, you are providing more than adequate care, its not because of your husbandry or anything you have done.
I'm not sure about the liquid calcium, it seems a bit much for such a young dragon ,unless he is showing signs of MBD. Considering he has to process that stuff with his slowed metabolism, I would just use the normal suppliments, dusting one meal a day. This will avoid putting unnecessary strain on his system.

 

[PatsyB]

I commented on the other thread that I will try to find and delete now. Was the vet an exotic vet? Did he do a fecal to test for parasites? What is going on with his mouth? There was a dark spot on the front of the mouth in one of the pictures. What does he typically eat and how much?

 

[Truff11]

Hi, I know its disconcerting, but this really is normal. Mine were only 5 or 6 months when they went through it for the first time. Think of it as 'semi-brumation', what they go through before they have the body mass to fully brumate. Its a slow down of the metabolic rate. If you do a forum search you will find hundreds of posts from people who have had the same concern(maybe a dozen in the last month alone), the vast majority of which come through it naturally in their own time. If the fecal comes back negative, you will know that is what this is.
I dont think you should be worried at this point, you are providing more than adequate care, its not because of your husbandry or anything you have done.
I'm not sure about the liquid calcium, it seems a bit much for such a young dragon ,unless he is showing signs of MBD. Considering he has to process that stuff with his slowed metabolism, I would just use the normal suppliments, dusting one meal a day. This will avoid putting unnecessary strain on his system.

Thank you for replying and easing my concerns btw. The reason for the liquid calcium was because he was showing early signs of MBD as quoted by the vet (Tremors, kink in tail, lethargy etc). I'm not dusting his insects while giving him the liquid as that's overdoing it. I'm hoping your're right in the fact that his fecal tests are negative. Than only will I feel confident in your advice. I will update on his condition as time progresses!

 

[Truff11]

I commented on the other thread that I will try to find and delete now. Was the vet an exotic vet? Did he do a fecal to test for parasites? What is going on with his mouth? There was a dark spot on the front of the mouth in one of the pictures. What does he typically eat and how much?

He specializes in exotics yes. I'm hesitant on getting overcharged at the vets place for just a fecal. It was a whole 74 dollars. So I got something on amazon (link is below) that cost me a whole lot less. Basically a fecal test but sent somewhere to a lab by mail and I get results within a few days. A vet will call me and tell me what medications he may need if the test comes out positive. I'm not sure what is going on with his mouth, I think its a cut. From when I first got him when he was only 2 weeks, his appetite was always low and picked up further on. However he is only 50 grams and 9 inches at 4.5 months and I think that is undersized im not to sure. he has not been loosing weight because I have been forcing him to eat as he is already in a poor state. To answer your question he is not eating or chasing any insects at all presently, he doesn't climb down from his post when he sees bugs he doesn't really move at all.

Link below

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000J5SOZ4/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

 

[Tabasco]

That is undersized. Tabasco DOH was 9/29/18 and is 13.25" and 130 grams. He has always been a great eater though, my wife calls him a food processor. All he does is eat, sleep, and poop.

What are you feeding him? I give a salad every day, and 4 days a week live food. Discoids, crickets, superworms, and waxworms, butterworms and hornworms for treats. Salad is a mix of mustard, turnip and collard greens with fresh hibiscus flower and bee pollen.

I also dust live food with calcium d3 and bee pollen during the week, on the weekend I dust with vitamans. 1 day a week no lights or heat, usually second salad day without live feeders. Also once a week I might give him a blueberry or rasberry. Try mixing up his diet, and no light of any kind at night.

 

[PatsyB]

The problem with this test is that it is a worm test. It's not testing for parasites like coccidia, which is real common in bearded dragons. Parasites and worms are 2 different things. I would have spent the money at the vet.

 

[Truff11]

The problem with this test is that it is a worm test. It's not testing for parasites like coccidia, which is real common in bearded dragons. Parasites and worms are 2 different things. I would have spent the money at the vet.

Luckily it does. I made sure to check for coccidia as well so yeah. I saved over 50 bucks to get better results. My vet just sends the same sample to a lab, so I’m getting overcharged no thanks!

 

[Elle]

Like the title states, he's very lethargic kinda just basks all day with his eyes closed (Droopy like).Appetite is non existent, I have had to force feed him all bugs just so he does not loose any weight. I'm giving him oral calcium as given to me by a vet for two weeks now and changed his uvb to a 10.0 instead of a 5.0 I had for four months. My concern is he has seemed to gotten worse since the vet visit two weeks prior. I'm worried it's pinworms or coccidia but he seems to be pooping fine with no runny poop just normal looking. He is about 50-55 grams and nearing 9 inches. Is that a normal weight and size distribution for his age? Basking temps are about 100-115 depending on where he is on the log. 70-75 on the cool side and warm side is about 80-90 degrees.

 

[Elle]

Coccidia is microscopic, take fresh pop into vet, if you have to overnight it, put in air tight zip lock.
My beardie loves calci worms, which is, black fly larva, horn worms. Butterworms. My bearded i adopted at 4, has nit burmated yet. He has seizures, which no one can identity as to why. Nothing medicine can treat, right now anyway.
My beardie wasnt eating, when i out catcus pear in front of him, forget it. But, i get that shipped from ca.
Also i recommend a vitamin as well as calicum. Herpa something.

 

[Kelly T]

I hate to be the lone voice of dissension here, but I don’t know that I’d be OK assuming it’s brumation or semi brumation. I’ve 4 of the things. Here’s what I know.
1. If brumation at any level, (partial or full) they will not lose more than 10% of their body weight. So 50 gram beardie shouldn’t lose more than 5 grams the whole time they’re Brumating. If he’s dropped more than 5 grams, or hasn’t gained any weight during this time, Is be concerned to keep looking for a diagnosis. Brumating babies don’t look sick. Just sleepy. Or completely asleep. My oldest one never fully brumated. Just stopped eating. Healthy. Awake during the day. Just very pointedly uninterested in food!
2. It would be HIGHLY unusual for a baby that age and size, AND with early MBD to bromate
3. As young as your baby is, I’d spring the $ for the vet. Yes It’s expensive. But the commitment we make when we choose to adopt exotics is to provide them with all the care they need. That includes vet bills.
4. If brumating and already in early MBD, I would follow my vets advice re: calcium. There is a form available to vets called “Calcium glubionate” it’s in a sweet base so they like it, which is good. It’s also much more readily absorbed by the reptile’s body. Is what I give my chameleon when she is gravid.
5. One last thing. Are you soaking? In the wild they would try to find some damp sand somewhere & burrow into it. Over the winter, the body will draw what it needs from the surrounding damp sand they the cloaca/vent. I’m captivity, a 15 min soak x3/week in slightly warm to the touch water. Put some repisafe or other water conditioning agent into the water. STAY WITH YOUR DRAGON THE WHOLE TIME THEY ARE IN THE WATER! They can drown quickly. And MND babies have lousy coordination. One of mine is an MBD rescue with severe enough of a condition it was touch & go when she first came to the rescue no one thought she would survive. Just shows how good a care she got, as well as how determined she is. She’s 2 yrs old now & her stupid lizard parents didn’t think they needed to do was toss a cricket or two into the tank a few times a week. She was undernourished, severely hypocalcemic, & has the deformities classic to MBD babies.
6. All the answers you’ve received are good. And all can be correct. Is one of the reasons an exotic vet is worth his/her weight in gold. Reptiles still have a lot of wild DNA. THEYRE semi domesticated wild animals. So they won’t show when they’re sick. If they are showing it & truly look sick, I would be concerned enough to head to my vet. I did with my first brumation too. It’s scary cause we are taught that we have to nurture and care for living things in our care, & part of nurturing something living is feeding it. It is scary when they stop eating! I said all that to say this. If was me, I’d be weighing him daily & keeping a log. The day he goes over loss of 5 grams, I’d have him at the vet again. Soak him x3 a week. Do gentle range of motion with him in the warm water. That will help keep his damaged joints more flexible. There is a product out there called Emeraid Sustain. It says it’s for herbivores, but my bet said it’s better for these guys as a supplement as the intensive care stuff is too hi in protein & is very hard on their kidneys. I’ve needed to use it on 3 different lizard species. The hard part is you have to get a vet to order it. It isn’t available commercially at all. All the lizards love it. It’s a powder you mix with water. For a 480 gram adult beardie, he had me give 2-3 cc every other day. Is good to get a packet at the vet & keep it. Once opened I put it in the freezer so it will keep longer. Is really good for them to mix with a little butternut squash baby food. It’s a good laxative & if he is partially brumating & has eaten anything, will help it move on thru, while bumping up the nutritional value of the supplement even more. Depending on the vet, a drop or two is coconut or other medium chain triglyceride (MCT) oil can be added to the syringe supplementation. Others think adding fat of any kind is bad as it increases the risk of hepatic lipidosis - a very serious disease that has a pretty hi mortality rate.

I hope some of this is helpful. If you see nothing else, see the part about “when in doubt, see the exotic vet.” Part. These guys really can mask the symptoms of illness until it’s too late to fix! Good luck & keep us updated.

 

[Truff11]

I hate to be the lone voice of dissension here, but I don’t know that I’d be OK assuming it’s brumation or semi brumation. I’ve 4 of the things. Here’s what I know.
1. If brumation at any level, (partial or full) they will not lose more than 10% of their body weight. So 50 gram beardie shouldn’t lose more than 5 grams the whole time they’re Brumating. If he’s dropped more than 5 grams, or hasn’t gained any weight during this time, Is be concerned to keep looking for a diagnosis. Brumating babies don’t look sick. Just sleepy. Or completely asleep. My oldest one never fully brumated. Just stopped eating. Healthy. Awake during the day. Just very pointedly uninterested in food!
2. It would be HIGHLY unusual for a baby that age and size, AND with early MBD to bromate
3. As young as your baby is, I’d spring the $ for the vet. Yes It’s expensive. But the commitment we make when we choose to adopt exotics is to provide them with all the care they need. That includes vet bills.
4. If brumating and already in early MBD, I would follow my vets advice re: calcium. There is a form available to vets called “Calcium glubionate” it’s in a sweet base so they like it, which is good. It’s also much more readily absorbed by the reptile’s body. Is what I give my chameleon when she is gravid.
5. One last thing. Are you soaking? In the wild they would try to find some damp sand somewhere & burrow into it. Over the winter, the body will draw what it needs from the surrounding damp sand they the cloaca/vent. I’m captivity, a 15 min soak x3/week in slightly warm to the touch water. Put some repisafe or other water conditioning agent into the water. STAY WITH YOUR DRAGON THE WHOLE TIME THEY ARE IN THE WATER! They can drown quickly. And MND babies have lousy coordination. One of mine is an MBD rescue with severe enough of a condition it was touch & go when she first came to the rescue no one thought she would survive. Just shows how good a care she got, as well as how determined she is. She’s 2 yrs old now & her stupid lizard parents didn’t think they needed to do was toss a cricket or two into the tank a few times a week. She was undernourished, severely hypocalcemic, & has the deformities classic to MBD babies.
6. All the answers you’ve received are good. And all can be correct. Is one of the reasons an exotic vet is worth his/her weight in gold. Reptiles still have a lot of wild DNA. THEYRE semi domesticated wild animals. So they won’t show when they’re sick. If they are showing it & truly look sick, I would be concerned enough to head to my vet. I did with my first brumation too. It’s scary cause we are taught that we have to nurture and care for living things in our care, & part of nurturing something living is feeding it. It is scary when they stop eating! I said all that to say this. If was me, I’d be weighing him daily & keeping a log. The day he goes over loss of 5 grams, I’d have him at the vet again. Soak him x3 a week. Do gentle range of motion with him in the warm water. That will help keep his damaged joints more flexible. There is a product out there called Emeraid Sustain. It says it’s for herbivores, but my bet said it’s better for these guys as a supplement as the intensive care stuff is too hi in protein & is very hard on their kidneys. I’ve needed to use it on 3 different lizard species. The hard part is you have to get a vet to order it. It isn’t available commercially at all. All the lizards love it. It’s a powder you mix with water. For a 480 gram adult beardie, he had me give 2-3 cc every other day. Is good to get a packet at the vet & keep it. Once opened I put it in the freezer so it will keep longer. Is really good for them to mix with a little butternut squash baby food. It’s a good laxative & if he is partially brumating & has eaten anything, will help it move on thru, while bumping up the nutritional value of the supplement even more. Depending on the vet, a drop or two is coconut or other medium chain triglyceride (MCT) oil can be added to the syringe supplementation. Others think adding fat of any kind is bad as it increases the risk of hepatic lipidosis - a very serious disease that has a pretty hi mortality rate.

I hope some of this is helpful. If you see nothing else, see the part about “when in doubt, see the exotic vet.” Part. These guys really can mask the symptoms of illness until it’s too late to fix! Good luck & keep us updated.

Thanks for the reply I'm waiting on the results of the fecal I mailed over. As a licensed vet will call me and email me the results as well as inform me on what medications to administer. Should get the results by the end of this week. I care for my little guy as much as I can financially! I just don't feel like being duped as a consumer to be honest. I don't mind spending money when needed for emergencies, food, better husbandry, (husbandry is on point by the way from the looks of it in pictures), but you need to be smart and not get overcharged in situations. As many of these vets care more about digging down for gold rather than whats best for your pet. Why spend 74 dollars on a one simple fecal exam, when you can spend $24. I will get the same results if not better from customer reviews etc and without having a middle man basically. The vet that I go to doesn't even even administer the fecal in house just sends it to a lab... So i'm basically paying them to give my fecal exam to another house to test it, were they profit the remaining dollars that I could've saved. As well as having to overpay as much for certain meds at my vet too. I can buy medicine on beardeddragon.co or beautiful dragons (As many people on this forum site have talked about) for 2 sometimes even 3-4 times less as compared to my vet. My vet charged me $65 for a 10 minute visit and 25 for the calcium glubionate. On that website its $14 for that medication. Also common coccidia medications and pinworms like pancacur only 10 bucks so you can do the math... In addition very much would like to thank you for your efforts in that rescue. I find it appalling that some people treat animals the way that you just described and should NEVER have pets. I will update surely when I receive the results by the end of the week and if their is a positive on what medications I will give him.

 

[JumpinJellyfish]

I understand about the vet. I love love love my exotic vet, but feel the way you do about yours about my avian vet (far less choice in my area for avians).
That said, look online for Oxbow Carnivore Care Pet Supplement - it's a (very stinky) powder that you mix with water and hand feed (unless they'll just eat the paste). My exotic vet gave me the Carnivore Care for my tiny baby, and it has done wonders! He went from very lethargic and worrisome to alert and active (though still not eating on his own - stubborn little patootie). They also make Critical Care, which is the herbivore version (good for adult beardie later).
You can freeze the powder to store it longer. There's also
Fluker's Repta+Boost Insectivore & Carnivore High Amp Boost, which used to be Repta-Aid, and gets solid reviews.

 

[Truff11]

I understand about the vet. I love love love my exotic vet, but feel the way you do about yours about my avian vet (far less choice in my area for avians).
That said, look online for Oxbow Carnivore Care Pet Supplement - it's a (very stinky) powder that you mix with water and hand feed (unless they'll just eat the paste). My exotic vet gave me the Carnivore Care for my tiny baby, and it has done wonders! He went from very lethargic and worrisome to alert and active (though still not eating on his own - stubborn little patootie). They also make Critical Care, which is the herbivore version (good for adult beardie later).
You can freeze the powder to store it longer. There's also
Fluker's Repta+Boost Insectivore & Carnivore High Amp Boost, which used to be Repta-Aid, and gets solid reviews.

Okay so to update his test came back negative for both coccidia and pinworms or any other worms. So i'm elated for that but confused as to why he still lacks appetite. I'm going to get the critical care maybe to help boost up his appetite until his follow up appointment with the vet.