Sick beardie. Should I get a second opinion?

[jonnopon]

Hi all, as title says I'm wondering if I should get a second opinion on my poorly dragon (age ~6) as I'm not really sure if the vet's advice lines up. Sorry for long post.

Background: a few weeks ago, I noticed she was suddenly stumbling/wobbling, struggling to move in a straight line, and sort of thrashing her head about while trying to get at bugs. Kind of distressing to watch, but otherwise she was normal; eating well (despite the struggle), drinking, not lethargic, responsive. I took her to the vet and after the usual run of questions they suggested it could be a sign of MBD, gave me some meds (Baytril and Emeraid @ 30ml/day) with a follow up appointment in a week. Took her back, and she'd improved but not fully recovered, so they gave me some more and told me to expect a return to normal within another week and to call back only if something goes wrong.

Well yesterday she suddenly started wobbling again so I brought her back to the vet today concerned that treatment clearly isn't working, and after a quick review (including of a video I took of the worst of it) we had a pretty weird-feeling conversation in which they surmised that she's actually doing a lot better now and sort of guessed that her movement might be neurological, the result of a stroke, and maybe permanent. The topic of quality of life and the Decision were brought up which was kind of out of the blue (as again she's otherwise perfectly fine), I was given a further course of Baytril and Emeraid, semi-advised on how to proceed and sort of sent packing a bit.

I have a few specific concerns but most critically I'm just wondering if anything they told me today sounds reasonable. A stroke and permanent neurological damage definitely weren't on my radar for possible ailments, and being left with a vague notion that her movement might not recover is kind of unexpected given that until today I had the impression it would/could. After questioning I gather that from here, in judging her health I should effectively not factor the movement. I'm also not quite sure what they based their "she's doing better" judgement on - it might entirely be on that she's gained some weight over the course of Emeraid (560 -> 620 grams).

I think what's worrying me is that it's a lot of unexpected information which maybe feels a little like guesswork. Coming away with not much in the way of certainty and yet another course of the same meds just feels a little...odd?

So yeah, bit of an odd situation. Does it seem reasonable, or is it worthwhile at this stage to question what I've been told and get a second opinion? My reaction might just be my own discomfort with what is at the end of the day bad news, but something definitely feels wrong-ish with where I (and my dragon of course) have been left.

Would much appreciate any perspectives on any of the above.

 

[Sadie]

Hi all, as title says I'm wondering if I should get a second opinion on my poorly dragon (age ~6) as I'm not really sure if the vet's advice lines up. Sorry for long post.

Background: a few weeks ago, I noticed she was suddenly stumbling/wobbling, struggling to move in a straight line, and sort of thrashing her head about while trying to get at bugs. Kind of distressing to watch, but otherwise she was normal; eating well (despite the struggle), drinking, not lethargic, responsive. I took her to the vet and after the usual run of questions they suggested it could be a sign of MBD, gave me some meds (Baytril and Emeraid @ 30ml/day) with a follow up appointment in a week. Took her back, and she'd improved but not fully recovered, so they gave me some more and told me to expect a return to normal within another week and to call back only if something goes wrong.

Well yesterday she suddenly started wobbling again so I brought her back to the vet today concerned that treatment clearly isn't working, and after a quick review (including of a video I took of the worst of it) we had a pretty weird-feeling conversation in which they surmised that she's actually doing a lot better now and sort of guessed that her movement might be neurological, the result of a stroke, and maybe permanent. The topic of quality of life and the Decision were brought up which was kind of out of the blue (as again she's otherwise perfectly fine), I was given a further course of Baytril and Emeraid, semi-advised on how to proceed and sort of sent packing a bit.

I have a few specific concerns but most critically I'm just wondering if anything they told me today sounds reasonable. A stroke and permanent neurological damage definitely weren't on my radar for possible ailments, and being left with a vague notion that her movement might not recover is kind of unexpected given that until today I had the impression it would/could. After questioning I gather that from here, in judging her health I should effectively not factor the movement. I'm also not quite sure what they based their "she's doing better" judgement on - it might entirely be on that she's gained some weight over the course of Emeraid (560 -> 620 grams).

I think what's worrying me is that it's a lot of unexpected information which maybe feels a little like guesswork. Coming away with not much in the way of certainty and yet another course of the same meds just feels a little...odd?

So yeah, bit of an odd situation. Does it seem reasonable, or is it worthwhile at this stage to question what I've been told and get a second opinion? My reaction might just be my own discomfort with what is at the end of the day bad news, but something definitely feels wrong-ish with where I (and my dragon of course) have been left.

Would much appreciate any perspectives on any of the above.

Lets go over the UVB and the basking temps --- what are you using for a UVB coil or a tube? Brand and bulb if a long tube fixture and where in the tank is it? Basking temps? How are you taking them and what are they? Is it a CLEAR bright white basking bulb --- NO colored bulbs NO off white or yellowish bulbs and NO day time bulbs they have a coating on them called Neodymium --- I always start w/ this first --- basking temps should be surface temps taken w/ a digital probe thermometer ---

 

[jonnopon]

Lets go over the UVB and the basking temps --- what are you using for a UVB coil or a tube? Brand and bulb if a long tube fixture and where in the tank is it? Basking temps? How are you taking them and what are they? Is it a CLEAR bright white basking bulb --- NO colored bulbs NO off white or yellowish bulbs and NO day time bulbs they have a coating on them called Neodymium --- I always start w/ this first --- basking temps should be surface temps taken w/ a digital probe thermometer ---

For UVB I use an Arcadia 10% full-length tube nested in the front-top corner of a 4ft viv; there's a reflector mounted behind it on advice from a vet we visited years ago for a separate issue.

Basking temps are ~90F, and I do measure those with a digital probe. The bulb is yellowish however so should I be replacing that?

Any extra info you need just ask

 

[Sadie]

For UVB I use an Arcadia 10% full-length tube nested in the front-top corner of a 4ft viv; there's a reflector mounted behind it on advice from a vet we visited years ago for a separate issue.

Basking temps are ~90F, and I do measure those with a digital probe. The bulb is yellowish however so should I be replacing that?

Any extra info you need just ask

Please increase the basking temps to 95-100 and replace the basking bulb w something like this
or a Exo Terra Intense basking bulb or Zoo Med Repti basking bulb -- you want a bulb w/ UVA Clear - also I would get a Arcadia 12% UVB bulb -- more for a desert reptile -- make sure your getting your basking temps w/ a digital probe thermometer like a Zoo Med digital probe example -- is the UVB inside the tank or on top of screen and what is the distance from the UVB to the basking decor -- is the UVB in a fixture / hood? or just a bulb w/ a reflector behind it?

 

[jonnopon]

Please increase the basking temps to 95-100 and replace the basking bulb w something like this
or a Exo Terra Intense basking bulb or Zoo Med Repti basking bulb -- you want a bulb w/ UVA Clear - also I would get a Arcadia 12% UVB bulb -- more for a desert reptile -- make sure your getting your basking temps w/ a digital probe thermometer like a Zoo Med digital probe example -- is the UVB inside the tank or on top of screen and what is the distance from the UVB to the basking decor -- is the UVB in a fixture / hood? or just a bulb w/ a reflector behind it?

I've replaced both bulbs today on a just in case basis; the basking bulb is an Exo Terra Intense as suggested, and the UVB is 12% (I was wrong in my previous post, the current one was also 12%). Will try to get those temperatures up a little.

The UVB sits in front of a curved Arcadia T8 reflector which are both fixed to the inside top corner of the viv, Just measured and it's about 30cm diagonally from the bulb to the basking area/middle of the floor.

 

[Sadie]

I've replaced both bulbs today on a just in case basis; the basking bulb is an Exo Terra Intense as suggested, and the UVB is 12% (I was wrong in my previous post, the current one was also 12%). Will try to get those temperatures up a little.

The UVB sits in front of a curved Arcadia T8 reflector which are both fixed to the inside top corner of the viv, Just measured and it's about 30cm diagonally from the bulb to the basking area/middle of the floor.

 

[Sadie]

Ok I am trying to pic diagonally for the bulb is it on the back wall? It needs to be directly overhead -- the distance for that T 8 should be 6-8 inches directly above the basking decor piece --- it is very important for distance --- I would look at upgrading if you can to a Arcadia 12% T 5 bulb something like this a Arcadia Pro T 5
a 24" fixture https://www.reptiles.swelluk.com/arcadia-prot5-kit-desert-12
It doesnt need to be now but w/ in the next year I believe Arcadias T8's are good for a year unlike the Reptisun 10.0 T 8's they need to be changed out in 6 months I always recommend 5 --- the Arcadias T 5 is also a year - the bulb is skinnier and you would need a different fixture I dont know if your using a fixture now but it is a suggestion - please get the one your using now to the distance posted --

 

[jonnopon]

The bulb is on the front wall, at the top. T8s are good for ~9 months so I'll see about changing it up when this one's on its way out. I do appreciate your advice on lighting and will try to make some positive tweaks accordingly. Do you have any thoughts on my experience with the vet?

 

[Sadie]

The bulb is on the front wall, at the top. T8s are good for ~9 months so I'll see about changing it up when this one's on its way out. I do appreciate your advice on lighting and will try to make some positive tweaks accordingly. Do you have any thoughts on my experience with the vet?

Vets should not be prescribing meds w/ out blood work being done --- they have no idea what they are treating for and he should of told you --- UVB should of been brought up immediately if suspecting MBD--- that is the main cause of MBD -- it needs to be a long tube fixture and correctly placed and distanced --- the T 8's are different from the T 5's --- - my vet did ask those things when I tool Hiccup in and then again when I got Blaze - they also recommend a fecal twice a year - that should be taken in NO ENEMAS -- they often end in disaster -- here is a website to find a vet if you want or need a second opinion

FIND THAT VET IN A HURRY | Beardie ER

Two links worth always having available Assoc of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterninarians (GLOBAL search page) https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661 Melissa Kaplan's Herp Veterinarians (GLOBAL search page). http://www.anapsid.org/vets/index.html#vetlist ADMIN : I think this should...

www.beardeddragon.org

But I would get your lighting and your basking temps in order and watch her behavior and in the meantime start looking for a new vet -- -- the wobbling etc says possible MBD but I am not sure --- I would get the UVB off the walls period and get it directly over her 6-8 inches w/ the T 8 --- watch how she does in the next few days -- I am hoping she improves and I am thinking they should of done bloodwork before prescribing an antibiotic -- you need to keep her hydrated -- offering water on her nose or if she drinks from a bath that way -- but she needs water -- is she black bearding at all ? here is a website for signs of a stroke read this and see if any of this is happening

Is Your Bearded Dragon Paralyzed?

Is your bearded dragon paralyzed? There are a number of things that can lead to a paralyzed bearded dragon and this post looks at those things and how to help your bearded dragon recover if possible.

www.beardeddragonsrock.com

 

[jonnopon]

Thanks. I will make changes to the lighting for sure.

I did wonder if the vet jumping on meds and sticking that line despite lack of progress seemed off. Their initial questions were entirely about her diet and activity levels, and I'm pretty sure they didn't run bloods. A fecal sample turned up no parasites or similar so that at least was done. I do keep her hydrated; she's never drunk from a bowl so I regularly bathe and drip feed water, more recently on the vet's advice I mix some Vetark BSP drops into the water. She's not black bearding or showing any other signs of stress - aside from the dodgy movement she's her usual self.

Reading that article, I'm not sure if anything lines up with what I'm seeing. She's not paralysed at all, and in this and other reading I don't feel I've found a solid "that's definitely it" explanation for what's going on.

To me, it seems that the vet was aiming to treat a potential/assumed nutritional deficiency, and something about where the conversation has been left regarding her lack of improvement feels wrong. So yeah maybe it's time to see someone else. Those search resources should be useful, thanks.

 

[Sadie]

Thanks. I will make changes to the lighting for sure.

I did wonder if the vet jumping on meds and sticking that line despite lack of progress seemed off. Their initial questions were entirely about her diet and activity levels, and I'm pretty sure they didn't run bloods. A fecal sample turned up no parasites or similar so that at least was done. I do keep her hydrated; she's never drunk from a bowl so I regularly bathe and drip feed water, more recently on the vet's advice I mix some Vetark BSP drops into the water. She's not black bearding or showing any other signs of stress - aside from the dodgy movement she's her usual self.

Reading that article, I'm not sure if anything lines up with what I'm seeing. She's not paralysed at all, and in this and other reading I don't feel I've found a solid "that's definitely it" explanation for what's going on.

To me, it seems that the vet was aiming to treat a potential/assumed nutritional deficiency, and something about where the conversation has been left regarding her lack of improvement feels wrong. So yeah maybe it's time to see someone else. Those search resources should be useful, thanks.

I recommend the UVB and basking temps in order starting there and see what she does -- they can do a X ray to look for calcium and see where she is low and high etc

 

[jonnopon]

I recommend the UVB and basking temps in order starting there and see what she does -- they can do a X ray to look for calcium and see where she is low and high etc

Hello again, sorry to pop back up but I was wondering if I could get some confirmation on my UVB research before I pull the trigger. I'm looking to make improvements following your advice.

I've attached some images of my current setup for visual guide. The viv is 4ft x 1.5ft x 1.5ft. The internal distance from the floor to the ceiling is about 43cm/17 in; to basking rocks 36cm/14in; to highest climbing point 33cm/13in.

As you can see in the images, I currently have a full-length T8 12% UVB above the glass, and a cage on the right of the ceiling.

Looking at replacing with a T5 setup, my questions are on length, position and strength.

Research tells me that I don't actually need the bulb to run the full length of the viv - only about 75%. Is this correct? If so, should I position the bulb towards the hot side (right) or towards the cold side (left)?

For mounting, is the current position (above the glass) ok, or should I move it to the back of the viv? Note that I can't place it in the center of the ceiling due to the cage (unless I should be placing it towards the left/cold side).

For strength, I'm a little torn on my options. Looking at Arcadia's ProT5 12% kit, the UVI range looks a little too high given the height of my viv. However, the UVI range for the T5 12% bulb itself seems suitable. The kit would be most convenient to buy and mount rather than a bulb/controller setup - so, does the kit seem safe? Would removing the reflector help if it is a little on the strong side?

Sorry for the 20 questions; I want to get this right and have found coming to solid conclusions difficult through just reading and watching. Very much appreciate your time and advice.

 

[Sadie]

Hello again, sorry to pop back up but I was wondering if I could get some confirmation on my UVB research before I pull the trigger. I'm looking to make improvements following your advice.

I've attached some images of my current setup for visual guide. The viv is 4ft x 1.5ft x 1.5ft. The internal distance from the floor to the ceiling is about 43cm/17 in; to basking rocks 36cm/14in; to highest climbing point 33cm/13in.

As you can see in the images, I currently have a full-length T8 12% UVB above the glass, and a cage on the right of the ceiling.

Looking at replacing with a T5 setup, my questions are on length, position and strength.

Research tells me that I don't actually need the bulb to run the full length of the viv - only about 75%. Is this correct? If so, should I position the bulb towards the hot side (right) or towards the cold side (left)?

For mounting, is the current position (above the glass) ok, or should I move it to the back of the viv? Note that I can't place it in the center of the ceiling due to the cage (unless I should be placing it towards the left/cold side).

For strength, I'm a little torn on my options. Looking at Arcadia's ProT5 12% kit, the UVI range looks a little too high given the height of my viv. However, the UVI range for the T5 12% bulb itself seems suitable. The kit would be most convenient to buy and mount rather than a bulb/controller setup - so, does the kit seem safe? Would removing the reflector help if it is a little on the strong side?

Sorry for the 20 questions; I want to get this right and have found coming to solid conclusions difficult through just reading and watching. Very much appreciate your time and advice.

So your tank is 17 inches high you want the Arcadia Pro T 5 12 %--- distance can be 12-15 inches from the basking decor piece so if you have a low piece of decor your fine -- mount the UVB to the ceiling and adjust your decor underneath ---- leave the reflector on it --- NO back wall and I would move it out of the very front and get it towards the middle or right in front of the middle or right in front of the back wall -- towards the basking side - she needs to be able to sit directly under it --- you want the 24" fixture for a 40 + gallon tank - according to my calculations your using a 70 gallon tank -- please get rid of the yellowish basking bulb -- they give off NO UV you want the Arcadia Par 38 halogen bulb -- or the Exo Terra Intense basking bulb or a Zoo Med Repti basking bulb --- make sure you have a digital probe thermometer to get those surface temps you dont want to burn her up -- distance for basking bulbs should not be closer than 6" and I recommend 8" --

 

[jonnopon]

So your tank is 17 inches high you want the Arcadia Pro T 5 12 %--- distance can be 12-15 inches from the basking decor piece so if you have a low piece of decor your fine -- mount the UVB to the ceiling and adjust your decor underneath ---- leave the reflector on it --- NO back wall and I would move it out of the very front and get it towards the middle or right in front of the middle or right in front of the back wall -- towards the basking side - she needs to be able to sit directly under it --- you want the 24" fixture for a 40 + gallon tank - according to my calculations your using a 70 gallon tank -- please get rid of the yellowish basking bulb -- they give off NO UV you want the Arcadia Par 38 halogen bulb -- or the Exo Terra Intense basking bulb or a Zoo Med Repti basking bulb --- make sure you have a digital probe thermometer to get those surface temps you dont want to burn her up -- distance for basking bulbs should not be closer than 6" and I recommend 8" --

Ok, thanks for getting back to me. So to be clear, shorter bulb yes, towards hot side leaving gap on the cold side yes, closer to middle of the ceiling yes, and the ProT5 12% kit seems ok for the height ranges I gave?

On the basking bulb, it is an Exo Terra Intense, but I'm planning on replacing the setup anyway, so I'll take the Arcadia recommendation there too.

 

[Sadie]

Ok, thanks for getting back to me. So to be clear, shorter bulb yes, towards hot side leaving gap on the cold side yes, closer to middle of the ceiling yes, and the ProT5 12% kit seems ok for the height ranges I gave?

On the basking bulb, it is an Exo Terra Intense, but I'm planning on replacing the setup anyway, so I'll take the Arcadia recommendation there too.

Yes I am posting a pic of Blazes tank for reference - his UVB is towards the front center my tank is 24" tall so distance is 12-15 inches directly above the basking decor piece - dragons will go to the light they need - there is a 75 watt basking bulb behind the UVB so temps are in the 90's currently 94- hot side is a gradient heat running 90's to 107 ish on the decor piece

 

[jonnopon]

Yes I am posting a pic of Blazes tank for reference - his UVB is towards the front center my tank is 24" tall so distance is 12-15 inches directly above the basking decor piece - dragons will go to the light they need - there is a 75 watt basking bulb behind the UVB so temps are in the 90's currently 94- hot side is a gradient heat running 90's to 107 ish on the decor piece

Great, thanks much! Have now ordered a full lighting revamp. Very much appreciate your advice and patience!