PLEASE HELP!! baby not eating for over a week :(

[Lindsey87]

Hello all!,
I recently got a beardie for my birthday a few weeks ago, and I am starting to have some concerns about my little Stanley :/ He was bought at PetCo on September 8th, and seemed very happy, healthy and alert. PetCo said that they were not sure how old he was but he is only about 6 inches long. He is in a 10 gallon aquarium..I know that he will need a bigger one soon we are in the process of building him an upgraded home His lights come on at 7 a.m and I put in a fresh salad for him around 8 but he has never had any interest in eating the salad. I then give him crickets around 10 a.m. and up until about a week ago he would chase down the crickets and he loved them (they were extra small crickets, no larger than the space between his eyes) and would eat ~50 total in a day. Then, i purchased Phoenix worms for him and oh boy did he love those even more. Then, he slowly started not chasing the crickets and would only eat them if they were right in front of him. Now, he has gone to not eating anything at all and just seems to be laying around all day. I give him warm baths every other day to keep him hydrated and put little drops on his nose for him to lick off, and sometimes he will do lick them off, but not all the time. I was getting very worried about the little guy because he seemed to be losing energy and alertness so i bought him some baby foods and was feeding him those and "force feeding" phoenix worms until I could get him into a vet.
Well, last night I took him to the vet and she said he was very tiny (8 grams). I read on another site that you are to give them as many live feeders as they want in a 10-15 minute period which is what I was doing. The vet asked me how many crickets I was feeding Stanley and I told her that he would eat ~20 crickets in a sitting. She then told me that was way too many and his primary diet should be greens not live feeders and that it was probably my fault that he is not doing well because I gave him too many crickets and they scratched his throat which is why he is not longer eating. I feel HORRIBLE! could I have caused my little Stanley harm?! Also, I read that loss of appetite could be from parasites, so I asked her if that was possible and she said not likely and said nothing else about it. She gave me DMG vitamins to give him daily and said to crush up greens and fruits to also syringe feed him. I hate thinking that I did this to me little guy. Is it possible that I did feed him too many crickets?! If anyone could give me some more advice i would be forever grateful! I want to do anything I can to help my poor little guy!! Please, please help!!

PS - he is on non-adhesive shelf liner
his cool side is ~80 and his basking spot is around ~105
he does not have a water bowl in his home
zoo med 50W basking spot lamp
Zilla Slimline Desert 50 UVB T8 Fluorescent Fixture (* i ordered the ReptiSun 10.0 last night online, should be here within 3-4 days)
There is a screen on top of his tank but I cut out the areas where his lights are so he gets full UVB rays

 

[Mungi's Buddha]

Hi Lindsey and Welcome to the BDF

I am sorry that your little dragon is not doing well. First can you post some pics of your tank set-up and light set-up? Minimum recommended size tank for a baby or juvenile bearded dragon is a 20 gallon long tank. Proper basking spot temp for a baby dragon needs to be 110 degrees not 100-105..that is for adults. There is no way that I know of to get the temps and gradients correct in a 10 gallon tank...simply not enough room to do it. You need to get him in a proper size enclosure as soon as possible. That would be my first step.

What types of thermometers are you using? The only way to get correct temperatures is with digital thermometers that have the remote probes. You need two of them. One probe has to be attached directly to your basking spot and the other directly at the coolest spot of the tank. If you are using any other type of thermometer or if the probes are not placed correctly then your temps can be off by several degrees. If his temperatures are off then that can be a major contributing factor to making him not feel good. Proper basking spot temps as well as UV are what helps dragons be able to digest their food.
As to what your vet told you I will have to disagree with a majority of it. In the first place he/she should have run a fecal float right off the bat to determine whether your dragon does or doesnt have a parasite issue. It is estimated that over 50% of all reptiles purchased at pet shops come home with parasite issues do to stress caused by improper housing, temps, diet, etc.
If your vet knew anything about bearded dragons he would have also told you that the 10 gallon tank was way to small for your baby dragon to be kept in.
While "salad" should be offered everyday to baby bearded dragons a lot of them will not touch them until they get older and crickets are the primary source of food for them. Your vet should have known this also. You are correct that you should let them have as many as they want in a 10-15 minute period of time...this is basic info that your vet should know. I have a feeling that your vet may know a little bit about reptiles but nothing specific to bearded dragons.

My suggestion to begin with would be to get your dragon in a proper size enclosure as quickly as possible and get his temperatures truly correct...I would keep offering him the "salad" everyday and also his crickets. As long as he is eating some even just a few then he is eating.Its is not uncommon for them to not be hungry sometimes and even to not eat for a few days.

Do you see any signs that he is shedding or about to shed? That could cause him to not eat.
Do you give him baths? A 20 minute soak in warm water can help them to poop and hydrate them as well as stimulate their appetite.

I am not a big advocate of force feeding unless there are no other options available. You have a lot of issues with his set-up that are more likely the cause of his condition..Those have to be corrected as soon as possible.

How often are you handling him? Constant handling especially in baby's that are in a new environment is a heavy stressor. It can take 10 or more days for a dragon to acclimate to a new home...during that time it is vital that he not be handled any more than is absolutely necessary.

Hope this helps

 

[Chris Baez Jr.]

Welcome to BDF.

I'm sorry to hear you're having problems. I am also new to Bearded Dragons, so we'll wait for more experienced members to come around.

For right now I can tell you that your vet is wrong on a couple of points. When they are young they eat more live foods. They will eventually eat the veggies and fruits, you offer them everyday and eventually they will eat some.

There is no such thing as overfeeding crickets to a BD, they will stop eating when they are full. I very much doubt that the problem has anything to do with how many crickets he/she ate.

Lets wait and see what the other members have to say. For right now, you stay calm, we have very knowledgeable and experienced Mods and members here and they will help you.

 

[Chris Baez Jr.]

OK, looks like Buddha was writing at the same time as me.

 

[Mungi's Buddha]

Here are some really good links that you should read through...some of it you may already know but these are the basics that will help you get things right for your dragon

Basic BD Care Sheet - A Place To Start
Bearded Dragon --- Exclusive Care Info Library
Beautiful Dragons Nutrition Chart
Is Bearded Dragon Co-habitation a good plan?
How To Sex A Bearded Dragon

 

[Mungi's Buddha]

OK, looks like Buddha was writing at the same time as me.

@Chris...lol...I'm a two-finger typist...slow...I would like to blame on my age but truth of the matter is I have always typed slow

 

[Chris Baez Jr.]

@Chris...lol...I'm a two-finger typist...slow...I would like to blame on my age but truth of the matter is I have always typed slow

@Buddha - No problem Buddy, I'm glad you came to the rescue. I hate to hear a little baby is suffering.
I'm also a two finger typist, why typewriters didn't even exist when I was growing up

 

[Lindsey87]

Thank you so much for your speedy reply! I'm not home right now so I can not post a picture of his home, but I will try to post one tomorrow.

MY fiance is in the process of building him a larger home for him to live in. I will keep annoying him to get it done as quickly as possible!

I am using an Acurite digital thermometer with a probe in his basking area. His basking lamp is on a dimmer and it was slightly dimmed, because he kept sitting with his mouth open when I had it around 112 degrees so I turned it down a little lower, but I will turn it back up for him. His cool side normally is 80 or 81 degrees.

Stanley will not eat anything be it his "salad", crickets, or phoenix worms. Which is what led me to "force feeding" him. I went out and bought squash, applesauce, and chicken baby food for him. I put a little droplet on his nose and he will sometimes gobble it up and other times want nothing to do with it. The vet then gave me a/d feline/canine wet canned food to mix with the DMG vitamins and I also put little droplets on his nose and let him lick it off.

He shed only his head several days ago. I do give him warm baths which he loves. During the bath I will also give him little droplets of water on his nose.

And I try to handle him as little as possible. Which is mostly only for feedings and baths. But when I do handle him he never has stress marks on his tummy or beard.

I appreciate your response so very much!! I just want to do whatever I can to take care of my little guy <3

 

[Chris Baez Jr.]

He is probably still in the process of shedding the rest of his body, since BDs shed in parts.

Do keep us posted.

 

[Mungi's Buddha]

@Lindsey...I still see no way you can be getting correct temps and gradients in a 10 gallon tank. As stated earlier there is simply not enough room in the tank for that to be possible. Unless the accurite thermometer you have has a probe and unless that probe is attached directly to the basking spot, not just in the basking area then you are not getting a correct and accurate temperature. the probe even placed a couple of inches away will not work...if it is attached to the glass then you are getting the temp of the glass not the basking spot. So if its not the right kind of thermometer and/or you do not have it placed correctly and it is reading 112 degrees then it is possible that your basking spot could actually be much higher or lower (probably higher) and can be a health risk to your dragon either way.
I would also be weary of a vet that even suggests feeding dog/cat food to your dragon...animal proteins are extremely hard on a dragon's digestive system not to mention all of the additives and fillers that are in commercial dog/cat food. Dragons will definitely eat it but there are certainly safer alternatives.

Have a good nite and I will watch for updates tomorrow

 

[Germ]

Just for clarification, that is a "Critical Care" for dogs & cats (See attachment). Flukers puts out a "Critical Care" product for reptiles.

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753955

His basking lamp is on a dimmer and it was slightly dimmed, because he kept sitting with his mouth open when I had it around 112 degrees so I turned it down a little lower, but I will turn it back up for him. His cool side normally is 80 or 81 degrees.

The open mouth while basking is called Gaping, it is a method that they use to thermoregulate their body temps, personally I think because they are too lazy to move for slight temp changes . But it is a common activity & is no cause for alarm or setup changes.

 

[gilliesexotics]

Hi, welcome to the forums.Sorry your little one is having problems. Please answer the questions and we will try to help you the best we can.
Is he on any substrate? If so, do you free range your feeders? Has the animal defecated recently?

I also agree with the statements regarding a 10 gallon and proper thermal regulation. Hot temps + how active a young dragon is will dehydrate the animal much faster. Judging by length your little one it is just a couple months old at most. Hydration is one of the most important factors in caring for young ones. This simple step usually is the start to an end for most youngins. How are you offering water and how often? What color is the urate part of the stools?

 

[Lindsey87]

@Mungi Here is a picture of the tank setup. The only thing different about it is that I now use a thermometer with a probe and the probe is attached to his basking log and it reads 112 degrees. And 81 degress on his cool side. Also, I purchased Fluker's Repta+Boost Insectivore/carnivore high amp boost (it says formerly ReptaAid) I'm guessing that is the same thing? Should I stop the a/d that the vet gave me and start giving him that?

@gilliesexotic he is on non adhesive shelf liner. he has deficated recently, and it was slightly soft, but i figured it was due to the soft food and baby food from the vet that i was feeding him. I offer drops of water on his nose a couple times a day and I give him a nice warm bath every other day. The urates are white in color.

 

[Germ]

I'd be checking the accuracy of your thermometers or where you are measuring your temps. There is no way that you will have a 31 degree F difference in 12" or so, impossible, not in that setup.

Example of a Basic Setup: Showing the recommended Basic requirements, proper Temperatures & the points at which they should be measured from, in Red & the optional choices that are actually used in this particular example enclosure, in Black.

​

Read more: http://www.beardeddragonforum.com/index.php?threads/basic-bd-care-sheet-a-place-to-start.5177/#ixzz27xuRzNFH​

 

[Lindsey87]

how do i check the accuracy of the thermometer? I placed the probe for over an hour on his basking log and it read 114. I then moved it to the middle of his tank and it read 82 i then moved the probe to the cool side of his tank and it is reading 79. I now currently have the thermometer sitting out in my house to see if it reads the same temp as my other thermometer does to see how accurate it is.

 

[Mungi's Buddha]

The dial thermometers you are using on the cool side are notoriusly inaccurate an having them placed on the glass like you do is not only going to give you wrong information but at best is giving you the temperature of the glass and not the temp of the enclosure cool side. You will need a second digital probe thermometer for the cool side.
Germ has provided you with an excellent set up but until you have your dragon in a proper sized enclosure then you are still not going to be able to get appropriate temps and gradients that you little dragon needs.
I would also agree with GilliesExotics in that dehydration is probably the main problemwith your dragon and that is probably cause because your entire enclosure it over 100 degrees and no true gradient. It's much like slow cooking your dragon.
As to the dog/cat food that the vet sold you I will only tell you that were it me I would not feed it to my dragon nor suggest it being fed to another. These creature need insect proteins and their bodies are set up to process insect proteins. Animal proteins are a different type of proteins and extremely hard on the dragon's digestive system in particularly on the liver and kidneys. Many people will feed dragons pinkie mice but it is only suggested as a once a month things and even at that very controversial. Fed too often animal proteins can and probably will lead to Fatty Liver Disease and kidney failure. To me it'snot worth the risk but you will have to make that decision for your dragon.
The last thing that I will mention is the water bowlthat you have in the enclosure. It is not needed and more than likely your dragon will notdrinkfrom it. Most dragons do not recognize standing water as something they can drink so they wont. What a water dish does do is raise the humidity in the enclosure which is an unhealthy thing for your dragon. They are dry climate creature and do not need nor want high humidity which can and will lead to other health issues such as respiratory issues as well as encouraging molds and fungus growth in the enclosure.
Please remove the water dish. Your dragon should get enough hydration from the food you offer as well as from the warm soaks and misting that you provide for him. Just an interesting point but dragons actually have the ability to absorb water through their vents...it's a very remarkable part of their anatomy and make up. In the wild when they go into brumation they will burrow into moist soil and while they are snoozing they will absorb the moisture from that soil to keep them hydrated. That is why the warm soaks are recommended. Even if they do not drink chances are that they will absorb some moisture while soaking. I have also found that with our Mungi if I simply set him in the bath then he wont drink but if I turn onthe shower and the water starts moving around he will immediately start drinking. The movement of the water is what he sees and makes him understand he can drink it.
The only furnishings your baby bearded dragon needs is a basking perch and a single food dish and perhaps a rock to naturally keep his nails trimmed down. I would remove the greenery as well because it will provide places for your feeders to hide and make it difficult for him to find them as will the hide that you are using as a a basking perch. Just so you know the basking perch/hide combo thing is not a great idea as the air inside the hide will superheat making it more like an oven and therefore dangerous for your dragon. I would stickwith absolute basics but if you insist on using a hide it should be placed on the cool side of an enclosure to provide him a cool retreat but it is best not to even use one until he is older.
There is a very good rule for setting up a baby dragon enclosure...its called K.I.S.S...stands for Keep It Simple,Stupid. And no I am not saying that you are stupid. That is just the way the rule is known. Keep thing basic and he will do better and you can dress up his home real pretty once he is grown.
I have already stated that I am not a fan of force feeding but if absolutely necessary then what I do is to mix his greens with some squash or greenbeans babyfood and some RepCal Bearded Dragon Pellets(I pre-moisten these to soften first) and blend it to a fine puree...sometimes I will blend in crickets or waxworms fora little added protein and I will add a dash of plain calcium and his vitamins..add a little orange flavor pedialyte blended in to it all untill it is just liquidy enough to load in a syringe and us that. but again ONLY as a LAST RESORT.Force feeding is an extremely traumatic experience on an animal as well as being dangerous if not done correctly or given too much.
I would definitely at the very least tell your vet that you want a fecal float done to rule out definitively whether he has a parasite problem. The incorrect.
Hope this helps...Have a great day

 

[Mungi's Buddha]

You will NOT be able to get correct temps in a 10gal tank...and if you allow the temps to reach 115 or over you are going to run the risk of seriously harming your dragon...He has to be in a minimum 20 gal and preferably 20 gallon long before you will have any way of getting his temps to an accurate and safe level for him...there is no way other to do that, Lindsey...properly sized enclosure is the first step in basic care for him. The way you have things is why the little guy is dehydrated..his temps are wrong and he has noway to get away from the heat. There is simply not enough room in that 10 gal tank to do it so if you keep him in there then there is not much chance if any that he will survive for long. That's as plain as I can state it.

 

[Lindsey87]

I already stated that I am in the process of building him a bigger home and he will be moved in asap. I am not using the dial thermometers anymore I am using digital thermometers with probes for each section of his tank. What is more accurate than a digital thermometer to get the actual temps in his tank? Also, there has not been a water dish in he cage since like the 3rd day i purchased him. Thank you for all of your advice. He will have a larger home asap.

 

[Mungi's Buddha]

I understand that you said that your boyfriend was building him an enclosure. I was simply re-stating that until you get that then there is no way you can get accurate temps so there is not much point in wasting time trying. As far as checking the accuracy of the thermometers themselves then doing as you stated you did by removing them and and placing them in a known accurate temp place in you home would be a way but that would only work if you know for sure what the temp is exactly in that place beforehand.
We are just trying to help you as best that we can...the simple fact is that 10 gallon tanks kill baby dragons all too frequently..unfortunately too many folks do not do the proper research before they go buy their dragon and pet shops are generally not educated on proper care,housing and husbandry of each variety of creature they offer so they are most times not of use as far as asking if a certain size tank is sufficient. It's a tiny little lizard so it looks like 10 gallons should work, right? Unfortunately NO.
Anyway, Nothing that I or anyone else has stated here has been meant as a personal attack on you and I hope that you understand that..we only want to try and help you give your dragon what it requires and the knowledge that you need to proper care for it to ensure the best possibility of success for both you and him.
If you have any further questions please do ask...we have a huge pool experience and knowledge at your disposal, anytime. Good Luck and I wish for your dragon to get better soon