juvenile dragon not eating well...

[lexi]

What is the best course of action for a juvenile dragon who is not eating much? My friend's beardie is still pretty small (about 13") and hasn't had much interest in food since he came to her from the breeder. I have heard baby food can be used - any advice would be great. She is attempting to feed appropriately sized dubias. He is used to crickets, so I advised to try going back to them.

This particular situation is a bit messy as he was originally adopted by one family, then returned to the breeder, and then adopted by my friend and her husband, so he's presumably quite stressed. I suggested trying some wax worms - she has taken out any extra cage furniture and all 3 sides of the viv are wood, with the front being glass.

The breeder gave her no instructions initially (as in, not handling him for the first week or so to allow him to get used to his new surroundings, etc.) so he's had a rough time. He is eating, at present, but not much, so I just want to have an idea what the next steps are in case he stops eating completely.

In addition to the stress, since he is young, I told her he could also be starting a shed, which may account for the loss of appetite. She's been doing daily baths and he seems well hydrated. She does not yet have a scale so I have no weight on him. I suggested she pick one up.

His temps are 105F-110F on the basking site and 85F on the cool side. He's on slate tile. Her UVB is the ReptiSun 10 tube.

My friend also has birds and I wondered if they might be noisy or stressing him out further.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[zebraflavencs]

Need a time line here, Lexi.... how much time has passed since this dragon was rehomed? How old, ball park, might this dragon be as well? I see the size...
Husbandry looks good par your post.
Janie

 

[lexi]

Need a time line here, Lexi.... how much time has passed since this dragon was rehomed? How old, ball park, might this dragon be as well? I see the size...
Husbandry looks good par your post.
Janie

I don't know exactly. All the breeder would tell her is that he was brought back because the previous owners "couldn't afford to take care of him". I don't know if that means improper (or no) UVB, not enough food, etc. The breeder has been pretty vague about the whole thing. I know he was only with her for about 2 weeks in between the two homes. He is roughly 3 months old, perhaps a bit older but not by much.

 

[zebraflavencs]

Okay, this sounds to be relocation stress. He's eating, so it's only a matter of time until he's eating full force. What is his diet?
Janie

 

[lexi]

Okay, this sounds to be relocation stress. He's eating, so it's only a matter of time until he's eating full force. What is his diet?
Janie

She's offering greens every day (collard, mustard and approved veggies) but she says he doesn't touch them. He has eaten a few dubias, but not anywhere near what a baby should be eating - maybe 1 to 3 a day. I advised her what size to feed (no larger than the space between his eyes).

The breeder was feeding mealworms and crickets : She also suggested supers, which I told her are not appropriate for a dragon of that size. She said (before talking with me) that she did offer him some supers, but he was not interested.

 

[renich]

You may have something with the birds stressing him out more than he needs to be with relo stress. Birds are a natural predator of beardies, hawks in particular.

Can she move the viv to a room without any birds?

Also, how long has your friend had him?

 

[zebraflavencs]

You're right on the mealies ,not feed mealies at all; supers, i'd hold off as a partial staple until he's eating better... stick with the roaches and crix...
can they take in a fecal sample and have that tested? I'd do that certainly, as soon as they can. Does the viv face or is housed in the same room as the birds?
Janie

 

[lexi]

You may have something with the birds stressing him out more than he needs to be with relo stress. Birds are a natural predator of beardies, hawks in particular.

Can she move the viv to a room without any birds?

Also, how long has your friend had him?

F_ _ _ , Renee, I totally missed that connection! *facepalm*

I don't think he's in the room with them but I'm sure he can hear them (and I don't know how much noise they make during the day, but my experience with birds [ex-husband had them] is that they are not quiet animals).

I did mention that other animals could be stressing him, but didn't make the connection of them being specifically beardie predators in the wild.. I will emphasize that. Thank you.

 

[lexi]

You're right on the mealies ,not feed mealies at all; supers, i'd hold off as a partial staple until he's eating better... stick with the roaches and crix...
can they take in a fecal sample and have that tested? I'd do that certainly, as soon as they can. Does the viv face or is housed in the same room as the birds?
Janie

I do not believe the viv is in the same room as the birds. She asked me a lot of questions before she got a beardie (we actually made her viv for her) and I told her then not to have him in the same room with the birds. I asked her again and am waiting for her response. She's at work so this is all via email :-\

Renee made a really good point (above) which is probably the same one you were about to make I can't believe I didn't make that connection before.

 

[lexi]

You're right on the mealies ,not feed mealies at all; supers, i'd hold off as a partial staple until he's eating better... stick with the roaches and crix...
can they take in a fecal sample and have that tested? I'd do that certainly, as soon as they can. Does the viv face or is housed in the same room as the birds?
Janie

Oops, forgot to answer the fecal question... I'll advise her to take one in.

 

[renich]

I think having a fecal is a good move. The previous owners said they couldn't afford the little guy. We don't know if it was because of health issues and associated costs or because they didn't know what was involved with setup and food costs.

Also, do you know what your friend is using to measure his temps?

 

[lexi]

I think having a fecal is a good move. The previous owners said they couldn't afford the little guy. We don't know if it was because of health issues and associated costs or because they didn't know what was involved with setup and food costs.

Also, do you know what your friend is using to measure his temps?

She's using a probe thermometer on each side.

 

[zebraflavencs]

So it looks as if we have identified some issues, and possible problems... Keep us posted on this fellow... Hopefully our suggestions will help these friends, make him happy and content...
Janie

 

[lexi]

So it looks as if we have identified some issues, and possible problems... Keep us posted on this fellow... Hopefully our suggestions will help these friends, make him happy and content...
Janie

I knew, under the circumstances, that it was a situation of extreme relocation stress. She did say that he can't see the birds (he is upstairs and they are downstairs) but can probably hear them.

The breeder has been really horrid about the whole thing - she sent my friend a scathing email about how she is "f*@%ing up her dragon" by "stressing him out" with "too much newness", which I thought was rather rude and irresponsible of her, since she made several mistakes in this whole scenario herself. I won't get into details here, or mention who the breeder is (no one on this forum) but I'm very disappointed that someone who is supposed to know more about these than her customers has been so careless.

I really appreciate everyone's help Back to my original question, should he stop eating, what baby foods or other things can she try? I hope it does not come to that, but we'll see... :-\

 

[renich]

This does sound like a horrible experience. Poor little guy.

She can try phoenix worms or silkworms. For baby food, I've heard applesauce works.

 

[ladyknite]

Lexi
with the birds upstairs and out of eye sight, the distant sound should not be an issue.

Here's what i think......and it goes along the lines of the relocation stress, only a little more in depth.

he was originally sold to Owner 1. Owner one had him for a short time, most likely not long enough for his system to calm down and ease stress. There may have been other feeding and/or care issues which would have multiplied that stress. Coccidia rose above normal.

Back to the breeder where he most likely had proper food and lighting, but still not given time to adjust to yet another change.

sent my friend a scathing email about how she is "f*@%ing up her dragon" by "stressing him out" with "too much newness",

And in all honesty, it was the breeder that added additional stress to the baby by not allowing him to settle down before selling him again. Stress goes up, so does the coccidia level.

And finally to your friend who had some incorrect information and not enough resources. Stress of new enclosure, new surroundings and new components of keeping causes coccidia levels to rise.

Coccidia will also promote simple parasites that may be in the system, and typically carried by crickets.

The fact that he still eats a little indicates that it is not above a level he can't contain himself, but I'd definately check the fecal to get a read and see if simple parasites are present.

Although there are times when feeding is necessary, when you have these circumstances it's certian that there is an underlying cause. Feeding without finding that cause will escalate the issue.

Now if he were diagnosed, put on meds (which will diminish appetite) i might consider feeding if he doesn't pick up natural instincts within a couple of days. Baby food isn't the answer tho. Baby dragons need protein to grow and maintain healthy systems. They simply don't make roach baby food, and dragons don't eat chickens, lambs or turkeys naturally. Apples (applesauce) is also an item that decreases appetite.

You can mix a slurry made up of his greens and bugs. Add in the calcium and vits. It would be my last resort however.

 

[lexi]

Got some new info here... she emailed me this morning.

Nobby (the dragon's name) was at the first home for 3 months. He then came back to the breeder for reasons she won't elaborate on, except to say that they returned him because they couldn't afford him (which, as you all know, could be a number of things). The breeder then put him on Albon for 2 weeks (02/01/10 - 02/14/10) and then gave him acidophilus. My friend picked him up on 02/15/10.

He is pooping (stool is formed/normal) and he ate some greens yesterday. They got a scale, and his weight is 144g. She has picked up some crickets and wax worms for him. I advised about getting a fecal done.

That's all the new info I have at this point, which I know isn't much - he was up basking for several hours yesterday, which she says he wasn't doing for a few days there. He preferred to hide against the side of a rock in there but she's taken all the excess decor out to encourage him to bask, and it seems to be working.

Thank you, everyone, for all your help. I'll update more as I get more info (on the fecal and such). In the meantime, since he is eating some greens, I advised her to try putting a few wax worms in his dish that he could eat at his leisure.

 

[renich]

Sounds good. Thanks for the update. Most likely it is stress with everything the little guy has been through.