Gutloading Mealworms

[lazer]

Because I have to be somewhere soon, I don't have any time to look for the question I am about to ask if it has already been discussed. You can just refer me to a particular thread if you are familiar with one.

Currently, I am buying the largest mealworm but never Superworms because I have heard many different stories from how they are good because of their soft exoskeleton to you need to cut off their heads (I don't really want to do that). Otherwise, they can eat through your Bearded Dragons stomach. Many people have told me personal stories of this while others say it's just a myth.

I gutload my mealworms with a thick layer of fish flakes (I look for the most nutritious) and cover the top with slices of apple, squash, and some leafy vegetable. It's incredible but the next morning when I check on the mealworms, in less than 10 hours they have devoured ALL of the fish flakes and I give them a huge amount. If you put your ear close to them, you can actually hear them eating. It kind of gives me a very uneasy feeling and I don't know why?

The mealworms I buy come 35 to a container.

Because I cannot put them in the refrigerator (house rules) it doesn't take long before mold builds up especially when I use apples. We have Central air conditioning so I try to put them near one of the vents/ducts but that doesn't seem to help much. I tried an insulated bag and put ice or an ice pack which quickly melts and they go from very cold to warm.

Can anyone here please offer me some insight as to what to load my mealworms up with as well as the problem I almost always have which is mold growing very rapidly in the containers due to the moist environment?

Thanks you for any help in this matter and I wish everyone a very enjoyable and safe weekend. Please, before you do something, jumping in a lake, etc., think of the possible negative scenarios that may result from taking on a challenge to something that potentially may be dangerous.

Even though I had to retire, it's still the Doctor in me as well as being a father. I really am serious because even if this advice helps just one person (cliche, ech ) then my words were worth writing.

I do not write these suggestions for my own gratification. I just want to make sure, for all it's worth, that no one gets hurt by doing something they really do not have to do.

 

[PatsyB]

The super worm story is just a myth. Bearded dragons have very strong jaws and stomach acid that will kill the super worm before it can eat through it's stomach. Super worms are a much better feeder than meal worms, they are meatier and their shell isn't as hard. If you switch to super worms, she may not have the constipation problem as bad.

To answer your question, I would get a shoebox size plastic container, they sell them at the dollar store. Cut a hole in the top and glue some sort of screen to it. I've used an old repti-hammock that wasn't being used and I've also used shelf liner. Put a layer of wheat germ or oatmeal and put your worms in. You can lay your veggies on top of the substrate just make sure they aren't wet when you put them in because that's what will cause the mold. You can also put a small plastic bowl in and then put your veggies in that. Do not use fish flakes or cat food or dog food. They aren't good for your beardie...I can't remember at the moment but I think it's high in phosphorus. Just use fresh veggies you would give your dragon, dark leafy greens(except spinach), carrots are good too. Just keep an eye on the substrate and make sure it doesn't get moist. I have the the same problem with my feeders and the humidity making the substrate moist. I just make sure I check on it and change the food regularly. I'll put up some photos of how I have mine set up, it's very easy and most of the supplies are from the dollar store. I use wheat germ as a substrate and you can get it in bulk at the grocery store for like $1 a pound.

 

[PatsyB]

Okay here are my containers the one with the shelf loner has small super worms in it and the one with the green hammock on it has breeding beetles.

These are the insides. The superworms are eating mustard greens just sprinkled on top of the substrate. The beetles have a little bowl with some cricket quencher and dandelion greens. They need a little help getting in and out of the bowl so I made them ramps

 

[lazer]

I truly can't thank you enough for all of the times you have helped me. And what an answer . The pictures make a world of difference when coupled with your explanation.

What I am about to say is a constant. Any questions I may ask are not intended in any way to be arrogant, nervy, challenging, etc. My questions are the only means I have to make sure my Bearded Dragon is getting the best care I can give her while at the same time, not hurting her an any way.

PatsyB. Some of the people who have told me stories of their Bearded Dragons having their stomachs eaten through were store employees from the two main chains!!!!! They looked me straight in the eye when they told me about their experiences. A majority of the employees either said it wasn't true or they never heard of it happening but that small % gives me pause for definitive action.

Again, I hope you can understand my hesitancy. Unfortunately I am programmed to think this way (about possibly offending you) because the wife I recently left, caused horrific emotional damage on me. If I asked her this question she would respond to me "Well don't ask me then and go figure it out yourself." I'm sure you can imagine the tone she had as well as the disgusted look on her face. So I am sorry I think? I am actually afraid of challenging you (I'm totally serious. It's almost like P.T.S.D. for me) for fear of that type of response from you.

I know this is not the place for this (I may have said this already) but maybe it may help you understand my sometimes "Over the top" postings!


I do not want to be rude to you or to challenge you. I don't want to chase you away but I am totally confused. I very much want to give her the Super worms but can you understand the hesitancy as well as cautiousness I have for fear of hurting her?

I should believe your word implicitly but doubts are gnawing away (I have OCD as well. It's also referred to as "the doubting disease." I truly do not want to keep using large mealworms when there is a better option.

I always check her feces because a lot of information can be gotten from it. This last movement she had were just complete shells of Phoenix worms with no mealworm exoskeletons to be found.

Also what I found VERY odd is that she throws down Phoenix Worms which I was always thrilled about because of there Ca./Phos ratio. I gave her some in a dish recently and they were from a new batch and they were perfect in every way. You know, like Mary Poppins . She didn't want to eat them which upset me because she always stays away from anything that had any calcium powder on it and this was my answer and I was so happy. So much for that now : (.

BTW. I love what you did with the containers. I tried to save some bucks and bought something stupid from the $ store about 1/20th the size of what you have.

Thanks again PatsyB. Do you take Visa or Master card ?

 

[lazer]

DANG. I did talk about that issue. I may have talked about this one also but I am suffering from "Chemo Brain." I don't like that phrase. I forget things I say and write as well as other issues.

I wouldn't blame ANYONE thinking that I am making all of these things up but if you can actually believe it, there is more.

My oncologist and Internal Med. physician can't believe I am still functioning but maybe it's because I am forgetting about all of my stressors ha, ha
.

 

[Tammy edwards]

I got mine in a plastic container with no lid on and I've put them on oats and put a fresh chopped up carrot and kale every other day

 

[lazer]

Tammy. You left the mealworms uncovered? I thought they were supposed to be kept out of the light. Do you keep them in the basement?

 

[Tammy edwards]

No they're kept in my living room the gut load and pupi just fine

 

[lazer]

So Tammy. You're saying that there is no need to put a cover on the top of the container? I guess the mealworms can burrow below the surface and that keeps them from being exposed to the light.

Since I don't know what the proper environment should be for mealworms since I haven't seen any literature on it, I just assumed they had to be kept in the dark. Now that I think about it, the tops of the containers are there only for the purpose of convenience (so the mealworms shouldn't fall out).

I think I may be stating the obvious but I assume they only burrow because they don't want to expose themselves to any potential predators and light exposure to light is in no way a factor.

Well good. I ask questions to learn and I learned something today. Thank you!

I ask the questions I do because I would like to save Beardies, if all is well, in (hopefully) the near future. But I want to be as sure as I can that I am doing the best job possible.

.

 

[Tammy edwards]

That's ok an no they don't need a lid I breed mine for 2 reasons 1 it's cost effective and 2 I know what they're eating so I know what my bearded dragons are getting nutritionally it can be a long process but eventually you do save money and as long as your dragons are happy then you know your doing right by them as for rescuing them I would advise on a lot of research whether it be Internet, book and also asking bearded dragon rescuers also as I rescued 3 not so long back and ended up sending them to a rescue as they were in a terrible state that I myself couldn't fix off love time and affection

 

[PatsyB]

I would think the only reason you would need a lid on them is if there is a chance of them being knocked over.

 

[Fiona]

you are all just wonderful I knew I saw a link on here about how to care for the feeders....and I found another one!!

500 super worms came in the mail today...I will say it ewwwwwwww.......I thought I would be able to keep them in the cricket keeper without the tubes, as I was trying to dump them into it using tongs and not letting them touch me ( yes it was a site) I quickly learned I was going to have to use the big cricket tub I made and just find a place for it. ( we live in a small house and kids just moved back home so my space has been taken away again... )

anyway now that I have a ton of worms, in a big enough place with egg cartons in there for them to hide and climb on.....I guess I will put wheat germ on the bottom, I don't have that much so does it need to be deep enough to hide under? or will oats be better? and if these things eat veggies too then that is great cuz Fiona has to be starved to them. I also bought a pound of the gut load they sell do I spread it around on the bottom of cage along with the oats or in a dish, it almost looks like is id bedding.

anyway I was worried they would all be dead as it is hot in Texas and they came from Michigan. but I did not find a single dead one, I was very happy. now I just need to make sure I keep them alive...

thanks again for all your help!!

 

[PatsyB]

Sorry I'm just getting to this. The wheat germ should be just deep enough for them to hide in. They love to dig and hide. Wheat germ is easier to sift through to clean unless you grid up the oats so they are a bit smaller. I found my grocery store sells wheat germ in bulk for like $1 a pound. I got a bag of it the other day and I thought it was a lot and it was something like 77cents!

 

[lazer]

Sorry I'm just getting to this. The wheat germ should be just deep enough for them to hide in. They love to dig and hide. Wheat germ is easier to sift through to clean unless you grid up the oats so they are a bit smaller. I found my grocery store sells wheat germ in bulk for like $1 a pound. I got a bag of it the other day and I thought it was a lot and it was something like 77cents!

Thanks PatsyB. My mother told me that wheat germ is supposed to be refrigerated or it can go rancid. When she read the bottle, there was nothing on the bottle that says "After opening, please refrigerate." Do you know anything about this?

Also, I already did what you said and found that wheat germ contains a great deal of nutrients, if I'm not mistaken. I also added in some oats for the main reason of soaking up any moisture that might be in the container.

When you said "carrots" I was a bit confused as I wondered how they would be able to nibble at such a hard substance. Surprisingly, I found bags of shredded carrots in my grocery store, Price Chopper.

I have a great book that lists the foods you can give your Bearded Dragon in the following way:

1) Things that can be fed daily.

2) Things that can be fed frequently.

3) Things that can be fed occasionally and,

4) things that can be fed, rarely if at all.

I own roughly nine (9) books just on Bearded Dragons and this book seems to be the best all around for giving out information an the proper care from A to Z. The Book is an "Animal Planet" book entitled simply "Bearded Dragons."

Here is the link for the page that has this book on Amazon.com.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=animal+planet+bearded+dragons

There are many other great books as well. I have one book written in the year 2000 that contains in it a beautifully written section on the emotional aspects of owning a Bearded Dragon including the unfortunate time when you are aware that he or she is about to leave you. It touches on the feelings to expect. Not to be ashamed of how you feel because any pet is a pet. I think it also deals with the different types of grieving processes that someone may go through. The book starts off though right from the beginning and the wonderful opportunity one has raising these incredible and special animals.

BTW. PatsyB. Currently you keep your meal worms in a container but do you remember when you first bought them and they came in a small container? If you put in any food for them to eat, and opened the lid the following day, you would have found most of the meal worms on top of the container eating. It probably didn't take long before those little guys dove under the substrate. I don't think it's the fact that they like to dig and hide. Maybe it was a cute way of you saying "They dive to survive!" which is the reason they go under.

I do not understand meal worms or for that matter Phoenix worms for if you see there insides, most of them are mush. How in the world, without a nervous system, do these meal worms know to hide or otherwise be eaten? If you drop them in your Bearded Dragon's tank, they will go for the quickest way to hide, and in my case, I have a certain type of flooring that they can hide under. And if my B.D. doesn't notice them, many do indeed hide underneath the carpet! It truly boggles my mind.

Well, I must run so you all get a break .

 

[lazer]

Fiona. Do you have a Petsmart or a Petco near you? They are refrigerated at these stores to keep them from pupating. Then you can take them right home without exposing them to much of the hot weather (during mailing) and lessening the time in their development into adulthood.

I think it is ideal buying them from these stores as most are sold in smaller quantities and different sizes.

The quantities are usually 25, 35 50, or a hundred to a container. If your guy or gal doesn't really like them, and it's hot in Texas, a thousand mealworms probably won't be finished for months. Unless you refrigerate them, they will change into these alien like creatures (Don't be frightened, it's just my way of describing them) and then finally into a beetle which is supposed to wreak havoc on certain crops. Although you can feed your B.D. these worms in any of their stages, I generally don't feed my B.D. once they have turned from the mealworm stage.

IMO, I think feeding a Bearded Dragon a Beetle, is too much of a very hard exoskeleton for them to digest.

But again, that's just my opinion.

Best of luck to you Fiona!

 

[PatsyB]

Never heard about wheat germ going rancid. It's a dry food like oatmeal it will only get bad if it gets too wet. I keep super worms, not meal worms and I do remember getting them from the pet store in the little containers. I never put food in there for them and always wondered what they eat.

I read an experiment where someone gut loaded Phoenix worms. I tried to do it myself and just made a huge mess out of it. The worms climbed out of the container and the food got moldy fast.

 

[Fiona]

lazer...no I do not have a pet store near me. I have to travel that is why I have been asking a lot of questions on here about what is best to do when you need to make few trips to the city.

Pastsy told me about a great site and I ordered super worms from them a little over a week 500 of the little darlings arrived at the post office. the post man was kind of cute when I went to pick them up....he informed me I had worms then asked me what I fed them to.

I put them into a plastic storage tub that I cut the top out of and covered the holes with screen, put the wheat germ and oats on the bottom and egg crate for them to crawl around on. i feed them all the stuff Fiona refuses to eat, and so far not one has died of natural causes. but several have been chomped.

I just hope they don't turn to beetles!!

 

[Fiona]

update on my worms......Fiona loves them!!! she is looking more like a toad with a tail then a dragon, so I cut her back on how many I feed her. and last night she did not even eat so I am thinking she wont over eat.

a few have died but not many.

I have noticed the tub they are in is starting to smell, so I guess I will just have to buck it up and take them out and change the bedding....I just don't want to touch them.....

anyway thanks again for all the great information.......now.... does anyone have a ferret.....step son is here and his mom delivered her to him last week.....thinking I need to research them next and she scratches all the time,...and smell.....yes she has been descented

think it is about time to hang a sign at the gate "petting zoo"

 

[PatsyB]

Cleaning them is a pain in the butt. I wear non latex gloves and I scoop them out of the bedding with a scoop and tongs and put them into another container to put fresh wheat bran in. I like the wheat bran because it's finer and goes through the holes in the scoop a little better. I found that the reason they start to smell is either the substrate is getting damp from the humidity and food that is left in there, they are eating each other, or they are just dying off. I did a little experiment. When I first got my batch I put egg crates in with them and everything was fine for a real long time, no dead ones, no smell. I cleaned the tank out because it had been awhile and I wanted to see how many I had left and I didn't put egg crates in. About a week later they smelled horrible and I had a lot of half eaten worms. So I cleaned them out again and put egg crates back in and everything has been good again. So it seems like crickets, they like to have something to hide in even though they are hiding in the substrate.

I don't know anything about ferrets. I had a friend just out of h.s. and she had ferrets. She had been staying with her boyfriend for a week and we went to her place to check on her ferrets and I could smell her apartment as soon as we got off the elevator! She had a lot of them and she had let them run loose in the apartment. There was poop everywhere, the smell was so bad. I don't think she lived there much longer!

 

[Fiona]

i have them in a deep cleat plastic tub with a locking lid, I know it did not need to be that deep for them but it is what walmart had when I made it for the crickets. when the worms got here a flat size egg crate was in there with them so I put it in the tub and added another. I did not have much wheat germ so I put oats in there also, not thinking I should blend it into flour first and yes they like the finer stuff. I am thinking they are stinking cuz of the humidity, we live in south texas and it is hot. so the ac is on nonstop. I put them back on the washer and it gets yucky in that part of the house but the rest of the house is cold. I clean out the food I put in there often as I don't want it to rot and mold to start.

the ferret has a cage here and they were told cage will not stink!! they keep it pretty clean but she smells odd. I could not image having a lot and letting them run free all the time. we let her out and she likes to play with one of the cats, but the kitten not so much.