Brumation

[Meighan]

Hi, I'm sorry, I know this topic has probably been done to death but I'm new here and am very worried about my little Pablo. I was wondering if anyone can maybe describe what brumation looks like or put a photo or video up or something. I did find a video on you tube but it wasn't all that helpful to my specific concerns.

Basically, he isn't sleeping as such, he just sort of slumps there, curled up like a banana, usually with his chin on his tail in a sleeping position, but his eyes are mostly open. Is this how it is meant to look? He is very cold but isn't seeking his basking spot and when I move him into it, he sits there for a while and then just crawls back to his hidey hole. He was suffering from worms (found out because I took him to the vet because I was so worried!) but he's had treatment and should be over that by now. Some days he will come out and run around for a while and even eat, but most of the time it's as above.

The temp in his tank on the 'warm' side has gotten alot cooler since winter began. I was told I should just be allowing his natural cycle and not trying to warm him out of it but I'm not sure if this is good advice. It is only between 26 and 34 on his supposedly warm side at the moment. The rest of the year round, this temp is between 35 and 45, with the cool side anywhere from 26 to 32 depending how hot a day it is outside.

Should I be attempting to get this side warmer or should I just allow this natural change. I am using a 75 watt floodlight which puts out quite a bit of heat and with the electrics in this old house, i'm a bit worried about trying to use a higher wattage bulb. Also, he will just slink off to under his log on the cool side if I do this. I'm at a loss as to how to or even if i should be trying to keep him warmer.

I'm scared that if something is wrong with him that he could just die and I'd never forgive myself. I did call the vet and she scared me by saying that captive beardies don't normally brumate. She said that he looked healthy (as in no impactions, MBD or skin issues etc) and the next step would be blood tests. I really think it's just because he's too cold but should I be heating him more (maybe with a heat rock?) or letting him 'brumate'. Help!!!! I did buy a heat pad that is meant to go under the tank but then I got it home and realised there is no way I can lift the huge tank on my own to get it under there. Also, it's sitting on wood and I'm unsure if this is safe.

I will try to post some pics of how he is acting but this is my first try at that so it might go wrong:

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In this second one, that ledge near him was actually half covering him (so he was hiding under it) but I moved it aside as I was worried he wouldn't be getting enough UV otherwise. Not sure if the pics worked as they aren't showing up in the preview. Sorry if it didn't. I did use the help page.

 

[Meighan]

 

[Aleena]

Couldn't see your attachments. Try loading them through photo bucket. Brumation isn't necessary for your BD unless you're trying to breed, but it's not necessarily a bad thing either. Just make sure the temps are raised back up in the spring.

 

[Aleena]

View attachment 2081

Oh, saw that one

 

[Meighan]

 

[Meighan]

The last one was when he had worms and he does look a bit unwell there. The first one was taken about an hour ago. Don't know why my thumbnails didnt work. sorry bout that! So you reckon I should be warming him more through winter? i might take him to the pet store now and exchange the heat pad for a heat rock.

 

[Aleena]

The last one was when he had worms and he does look a bit unwell there. The first one was taken about an hour ago. Don't know why my thumbnails didnt work. sorry bout that! So you reckon I should be warming him more through winter? i might take him to the pet store now and exchange the heat pad for a heat rock.

heat pads and rocks aren't recommended. Beardies can't sense heat through their bellies and tend to burn themselves. You can try a CHE if you want night time or additional heat, as it contains no light and will not bother them at night. It's up to you if you want to let him brumate. He's already started the process.

 

[Meighan]

So I shouldn't be so worried? Will he actually go fully into a sleep or will he just act lethargic like this? I do use a blue light at night but it's only a 50 watt. maybe i should amp that one up a bit. his last tank was only 1 foot high so that was enough but this new one is double that so i need stronger bulbs i guess. Thank you so much for your help!

 

[Aleena]

So I shouldn't be so worried? Will he actually go fully into a sleep or will he just act lethargic like this? I do use a blue light at night but it's only a 50 watt. maybe i should amp that one up a bit. his last tank was only 1 foot high so that was enough but this new one is double that so i need stronger bulbs i guess. Thank you so much for your help!

The blue night light might be part of your issue. They do not need or want colored light or light of any kind at night, it disturbs their sleep. Try putting in a CHE (ceramic heat emitter) and see if his activity starts improving, and cut out the night light. There could be more things going on. Could you post a pic of your setup in its entirety? Do you use UVB, and if so, what strength and tube or otherwise? Can you give me a basic run down of your husbandry? What kind of sand do you you use? Sorry, lots of questions, but wanting to make sure I'm not just passing it off as brumation if it isn't.

 

[Germ]

Let's start with your heat, your basking spot should be in the vicinity of 38C-40C year round, no matter what your outside temps are, you must adjust the enclosure heat accordingly.

What your Vet told you is not necessarily correct. Brumation is hardwired into their system as a protection in the wild for when the temps get colder & food is scarce. Generally in Captivity, we try to keep their environment constant, so there really should not be a season change in their enclosure, so Brumation may not happen. Variations in enclosure temperature &\or Day\Night schedule will often trigger Brumation in Captivity. Even with constant temps & lighting some BDs will still Brumate.

I disagree with a number of the comments previously posted. While all BDs do not Brumate in Captivity, once the process starts, you do not have a choice if you want to let him Brumate or not. It is detrimental to their health to attempt to stop it, because it is a natural & necessary part of the life cycle, once it begins.

As far as the Brumation & Breeding relationship goes, some Breeders will drop their temps & lighting to purposely bring it on, so as to have a more natural breeding cycle in the spring. There is a choice to bring it on, but not to stop it, once it starts. (I will be repeating this, because this is the way it must be, whether we like it or not)

Different BDs Brumate differently, or a combination of the following. Some will dig a hole if they can or find a secluded spot, such as a hide or dark corner, usually on the cooler side & go right to sleep for days to months. Others will find a quiet place to 'Perch', eyes open during the day, aware of their surroundings, but no other movement, again for days to months. Yet others will just take repeated extended 'Naps' (that can last for days to weeks at a time), wake for short periods, possibly move a bit, then nap again. The length of time that Brumation lasts will vary from BD to BD. 3 of mine generally go down for 2-3 months, while my oldest male, 3 times now, has gone for +5 months.

Some signs of Brumation setting in are, but not limited to:

• Activity slows
• Appetite dwindles
• It spends the majority of it's time on the cooler areas of the enclosure
• Sleeping the majority of the day
• Eyes open but no other movement
• Refuse to Bask for any length of time
• Digging to find a place to hide
• Spends it's daylight inside it's hide

There are many ways of dealing with Brumation. This is what I do ...

Once you are sure that it has gone into Brumation and hasn't moved for a week or so. You can & should shut down all the lights. Be sure that the temps in the enclosure do not drop below 17C. During this time they will not eat, drink, poop, require UVB, added heat or anything else for that matter. Visually check on it weekly without disturbing it for signs of noticeable weight loss.

If it wakes on it's own & starts to move around, turn the lights back on, while the enclosure is warming up, give it a warm soak to help with hydration & bring it's body temp up. Then offer it some fresh greens. It may eat, it may not. It may not be done & go back into it's version of Brumation. If it goes back down, after a day or 2 to be sure that it has, you can again leave the lights off, continue this sequence until it wakes, eats & stays active. They do not expend any energy during this time, so nourishment is not needed, can & will go for Months with very, very little weight loss, that should not be really visually noticeable.

As mentioned Brumation can last for days to many months. But I stress, once it has started, Do Not Try To Prevent It From Happening.

I have no doubts in my mind at all, that your BD is trying to brumate by your descriptions & the fact that you have allowed your enclosure temps to vary drastically between seasons, triggering it.

Let it run it's course ...

Heat Rocks are a big No No, are notorious for malfunctioning and burning the animals as Aleena mentioned.

Please answer Aleena's questions.

 

[Germ]

BTW - He is a gorgeous dragon, impressive coloring.

 

[Meighan]

Woah, thanks. That was very detailed which is just what I needed. I just went out and bought him a 150watt CHE and an extra UVB lamp as the one he has right now is one of the long tube ones but it doesn't quite stretch the full length of his tank and I keep moving it along to which ever side he's on (he never sits in the middle!), so I'm gonna just have this one near his main basking area and the tube one will then cover the rest of his tank. I believe my husbandry has been right up until now because he has gone from a 4 ft to a 6 ft tank and I'm still attempting to get all his settings right at the moment.

I have been having trouble with heating it as it's 2ft deep and the lamps I have tend to blow out alot and are only at 75 watt, so i've been scared to try a higher wattage. i went to the hardware store and bought a couple of 150watt rated flood lamps that I'm gonna use as the lamp bases and some silicone and i'm gonna stick them to the top of the tank and move the old lamps to the cooler side as they should be about the right temp for that side. I'm gonna put the new UVB lamp and the 150watt ceramic in the new lamp fixtures. I also bought a new digital thermometer and an extra one as i think the one i have in the warm side might be a bit off.

Anyway, at the mo he has the 6x2x2 tank with desert sand (the proper one from the pet store, not from the actual desert!), reptisun 10.0 UVB (tube) and 75watt floodlight heat lamp. I put his food bowls on a cork board to stop him ingesting sand. He's never has an issue with his digestion as such (he did have worms that time), he's always been a regular pooper and almost always goes in the same spot too! He used to love his mealworms but the vet told me not to feed them too him as they can be harmful and cause impaction. I have gotten him some canned silkworms since we can't get live ones here and he loves them. I dust them with calcium and on occasion reptivite. He also eats live crickets and I give him salad every second day. I was giving it every day but the vet said to cut back to every second day now that he's an adult. The insects are given every second or third day (on vet's advice). He is 18.5 inches long (roughly) and weighs about 400g. The vet said he's a little on the large side but he looks healthy to me!

He has a pool in his tank which he used to practically live in! He loved it so much, but since he's gone to his larger tank, he hasn't gone in it for more than a few seconds (yes I make sure the water is very warm). The temps have only recently dropped. It was around 32 degrees here not that long ago and his tank was up around 38 - 42. I'm seeing it as being so obvious now!!! I feel like a bad mother :-( I'm hoping the new lights will help.

I took him to the store with me before (left before I got your post saying not to disturb him) and he was lively and happy and running around being curious. When we got home I put him under his basking lamp where he sat for about 20mins, but he's now back in his little resting spot where he has dug out a pit for himself in the sand. It's actually bedtime now, his lights just went out!

So, should I turn off his lamps and leave him in the cold and dark or should I put the new lamps in and get the temps right and see if he becomes more active on his own as a result?

This was his first tank until he outgrew it (it was getting way too hot in there for him and he either paced frantically or slumped in the cool side).

And this is the tank he's in now (but it has changed a little bit recently decorwise but basically the same setup): I had to put his rock mountain on a box to get it closer to the lamps. Not such an issue other than visually, except that the crickets do like to hide in there!!! he's also got some new background pictures.

He's my little angel and I feel awful thinking I've done wrong by him. I've got all the books and have done so much research and to think i made such a stupid mistake as not keeping the heating up to the same temps throughout the winter. I guess i was confused with the info that's out there for the breeders maybe. Thanks so much for helping, you have no idea how much you've put my mind at ease. (sorry this is so long!).

 

[Meighan]

Oh thanks, yes, he is gorgeous!! This was him after a belly shed at around 2 months old. love his orange bits! (unfortunately he was in pink calci sand then and it stained him a bit on his legs. he's fine now though obviously!). I don't use the calci-sand anymore as I've heard bad things.

 

[Germ]

Woah, thanks. That was very detailed which is just what I needed. I just went out and bought him a 150watt CHE and an extra UVB lamp as the one he has right now is one of the long tube ones but it doesn't quite stretch the full length of his tank and I keep moving it along to which ever side he's on (he never sits in the middle!), so I'm gonna just have this one near his main basking area and the tube one will then cover the rest of his tank. I believe my husbandry has been right up until now because he has gone from a 4 ft to a 6 ft tank and I'm still attempting to get all his settings right at the moment.

You can put all the UVB bulbs you want on top of that (Beautiful) tall enclosure, no effective UVB will be reaching the floor. An 'NEW' unfiltered (No screen between Bulb & BD) 10.0 UVB bulb will only radiate effective UVB to a maximum of 50cm. And that distance dissipates quickly as the bulb ages. A fine screen can block as much as 50% of that. UVB only has to cover the Basking Spot, because if your temps are right, that is where it will spend the majority of it's time under normal circumstances. Also, it will know when it needs more & will seek it out, as long as it is available.

So the trick is, to setup the basking spot high enough, that it is within 20-25cm from the UVB bulb itself & setup the heat bulb of a wattage & distance to provide a temp of 38-40C at the same spot. Sturdy branches are quite often the choice, whether real or artificial, to achieve this & give the BD some exercise climbing up & down.

I have been having trouble with heating it as it's 2ft deep and the lamps I have tend to blow out alot and are only at 75 watt, so i've been scared to try a higher wattage. i went to the hardware store and bought a couple of 150watt rated flood lamps that I'm gonna use as the lamp bases and some silicone and i'm gonna stick them to the top of the tank and move the old lamps to the cooler side as they should be about the right temp for that side. I'm gonna put the new UVB lamp and the 150watt ceramic in the new lamp fixtures. I also bought a new digital thermometer and an extra one as i think the one i have in the warm side might be a bit off.

With an enclosure as long as yours, I have found that they are much easier to heat if the raised Basking Spot is setup in the middle of the enclosure, rather than at one end, allowing the heat to radiate to both sides. Lower wattage bulbs will likely be needed on either end to bring the Cool Side temps on the floor into the required vicinity of 27-30C. With the Basking spot in the middle it would create 2 cooler areas on the outside ends.

If you are having trouble with blowing breakers because of too much power draw by the lights, you may want to try ordinary Halogen Floods as your heat bulbs. I use them in all my enclosures. Brighter, whiter light, more heat per watt, less power consumption, superb heat penetration. A 75W Halogen will produce & radiate more heat & light than most regular 150W bulbs & radiate it further. My enclosures are also 24" tall. If you take the suggestion of a raised basking spot directly in the middle (slightly towards the back), I would just about lay money down, that if you used a 50-75W Halogen in the middle above the Basking Spot, with two 50W (may have to go to 75W, but I really doubt it) Halogens on either side, approximately midway between the middle bulb & the ends, that your temps will fall really close to what is needed. You could adjust the floor (Cool Side) temps by moving the two outside lights to the right or the left until the temps are achieved.

Remember that the Basking temp must be measured directly at the Basking spot, usually the highest point closest to the heat bulb. The Cool Side temp must be measured at the floor area\s furthest from the Heat bulb, the coolest area\s in the enclosure.

Anyway, at the mo he has the 6x2x2 tank with desert sand (the proper one from the pet store, not from the actual desert!), reptisun 10.0 UVB (tube)

and 75watt floodlight heat lamp. I put his food bowls on a cork board to stop him ingesting sand.

He's never has an issue with his digestion as such (he did have worms that time), he's always been a regular pooper and almost always goes in the same spot too!

He used to love his mealworms but the vet told me not to feed them too him as they can be harmful and cause impaction. I have gotten him some canned silkworms since we can't get live ones here and he loves them. I dust them with calcium and on occasion reptivite.

He also eats live crickets and I give him salad every second day. I was giving it every day but the vet said to cut back to every second day now that he's an adult. The insects are given every second or third day (on vet's advice). He is 18.5 inches long (roughly) and weighs about 400g. The vet said he's a little on the large side but he looks healthy to me!

While Vets can do all the medical testing etc, I have found very few that are species specific knowledgeable in their husbandry & quite often give generalized advice. The majority of info about Mealworms is Myth & they have been used as feeders since the start of the hobby. There are better feeders out there, but Mealies are not a Bad feeder. I wouldn't recommend them as a staple feeder, but are fine for treats or a change up. Fresh greens should be served daily, live prey served every 2-3 days. Your BD is not oversized or overweight & you are right, it looks very healthy in the pics. I have 2 females right now, 50cm long and tipping the scales at 650-700+ grams at the ages of 7 & 8 years old.

He has a pool in his tank which he used to practically live in! He loved it so much, but since he's gone to his larger tank, he hasn't gone in it for more than a few seconds (yes I make sure the water is very warm). The temps have only recently dropped. It was around 32 degrees here not that long ago and his tank was up around 38 - 42. I'm seeing it as being so obvious now!!! I feel like a bad mother :-( I'm hoping the new lights will help.

Water dishes, pools are a personal preference issue. Very few BDs will drink from standing water. If yours is one of the rare ones that will, good. If not, then it is my opinion that they needlessly raise the humidity in the enclosure & splashing around going in and out of it, particularly when using a sand substrate, will wet the substrate & provide the opportunity for bacterial growth.

I took him to the store with me before (left before I got your post saying not to disturb him) and he was lively and happy and running around being curious. When we got home I put him under his basking lamp where he sat for about 20mins, but he's now back in his little resting spot where he has dug out a pit for himself in the sand. It's actually bedtime now, his lights just went out!

So, should I turn off his lamps and leave him in the cold and dark or should I put the new lamps in and get the temps right and see if he becomes more active on his own as a result?

Personally, I would do the setup changes, get the proper Temps mentioned above set up, then see the choice that it makes on it's own. But do this soon, so as not to prolong disturbing it from Brumating should it choose to. If it does still choose to Brumate, and has not moved for a week, then I would not have the lights on during the day until it comes around on it's own.

You have a beautiful enclosure, it is your choice if you care to use some of the set up suggestions given, but the main priorities are getting the above mentioned temperatures right at both the Cool Side\s & the Basking Spot with it close enough to the UVB bulb to be effective.

He's my little angel and I feel awful thinking I've done wrong by him. I've got all the books and have done so much research and to think i made such a stupid mistake as not keeping the heating up to the same temps throughout the winter. I guess i was confused with the info that's out there for the breeders maybe. Thanks so much for helping, you have no idea how much you've put my mind at ease. (sorry this is so long!).

Hope you can make heads or tails out of this & that it helps some. My BDs are envious of your enclosure.

Good Luck

 

[Meighan]

Thank you! I will be making some changes and will post an update soon. He is sleeping now though as it's nearly 9pm here, so it wont be tonight!

 

[Germ]

5 am - My Sunday is just starting, here

 

[Aleena]

Let's start with your heat, your basking spot should be in the vicinity of 38C-40C year round, no matter what your outside temps are, you must adjust the enclosure heat accordingly.


I disagree with a number of the comments previously posted. While all BDs do not Brumate in Captivity, once the process starts, you do not have a choice if you want to let him Brumate or not. It is detrimental to their health to attempt to stop it, because it is a natural & necessary part of the life cycle, once it begins.

Heat Rocks are a big No No, are notorious for malfunctioning and burning the animals as Aleena mentioned.

Please answer Aleena's questions.

I'm not big on brumation. I try to keep my animals from cycling into it.

 

[Germ]

Me neither, but once it begins, it is a necessary evil.

 

[Josh]

Great great discussion going on here! What do we think about sticky-ing this thread?

 

[Germ]

It's up to you, fine by me