Vitamin D question

[BeardieBaby]

Hi everyone! I was just wondering how many crickets you should powder with the calcium vitamin D supplement when you feed your beardie. I know you can overdose them on Vitamin D so I want to make sure I am not giving him TOO much when I feed him. If he eats about 10 crickets in the morning(which he usually does) how many of those 10 do I powder? I have been doing all of them but I am beginning to think that is way to much! Any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks!

 

[Germ]

General feeding/supplementation schedule:
For hatchlings and young juveniles (up to 2 months): Fresh greens/veg. 1-2 times daily - Live prey 2-3 times per day
Dusted: Five days per week with phosphorus free calcium – one day per week calcium with D3 - One day per week with a vitamin supplement such as Reptivite or Herptivite.

For juveniles and sub-adults (2 months to sexual maturity): Fresh greens/veg 1-2 times daily - Live prey 1-2 times per day
Dusted: Five days per week with phosphorus free calcium – One day per week with calcium with D3 - One day per week with a vitamin supplement such as Reptivite or Herptivite.

For adults (generally 1+ year): Fresh greens/veg 1- 2 times daily - Live prey every 2-3 days.
Dusted: Every other feeding with phosphorus free calcium - Twice per month with calcium with D3 - One day per week with a vitamin supplement such as Reptivite or Herptivite.

As there are different circumstances that may arise, this schedule is recommended only as a general guide and may be altered to accommodate individual situations. Using a tracking method of when you dust prevents unnecessary use of product and more importantly, potential harm to your dragon! With proper and effective UVB lighting, supplementation with vitamin D3 is not imperative but should be provided in small amounts. Excessive levels of oral vitamin D3 can potentially lead to the excessive absorption and utilization of calcium and/or toxicity as can the excessive use of supplements containing high levels of vitamin A. Over use of any supplement can have the potential to cause serious health problems, stick to an appropriate supplementation schedule.

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Read more: http://www.beardeddragonforum.com/index.php?threads/basic-bd-care-sheet-a-place-to-start.5177/#ixzz22DPQjJ9B​

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You should dust all live feeders. Not only to make up for the Calcium to phosphorous ratio in them but also in the the other foods, greens, fruits that may be lacking.​

Amendment to Supplementation: Here is an article providing a good explanation to give an understanding on the Calcium to Phosphorous & Fat to Protien ratio ...

The main points to look out for are the fat content and the Ca: P ratio.

Ca: P Ratio and Reptiles

Many have heard about the Ca/P ratio but not many understand what it means to your reptiles. The Ca: P ratio is simply the ratio of Calcium compared to Phosphorus and so a Ca: P ratio of 1 (one or 1:1) would mean that Calcium & Phosphorus are found in equal quantities, a Ca: P ratio of 0.5 (half or 0.5:1) means that there is half the amount of Calcium than there is Phosphorus. An ideal Ca: P ratio would be around 2 (two or 2:1) as this will allow calcium to be easily absorbed.

So why is this important? It has to do with the way Calcium is absorbed by your reptile's intestine. For any calcium to be absorbed, there needs to be at least equal quantities of Calcium and Phosphorus in their food. If the Phosphorus is much higher, then not only will it prevent calcium being absorbed, but may even leach calcium that is already present in your reptile's body. This can lead to serious problems such as MBD (Metabolic Bone Disease). When Calcium and Phosphorus are dissolved in equal quantities, it forms an insoluble salt (Calcium Phosphate) which is very difficult to absorb by your reptile's intestine. If there is a large amount of phosphorus compared to the calcium, then all the calcium will be bound by the phosphorus and none will be available for your reptile. If there is a large excess of calcium, then no phosphorus can be absorbed, which is also a vital mineral but not needed in as large a quantity as calcium. Ideally the Ca/P ratio for most vertebrates is around 2 (also written as 2:1).

Fat vs Protein

Another thing to look out for is the amount of fat compared to protein. Fat contains twice as many calories as protein, but doesn't provide any of the nutritional benefits that are gained from proteins from their amino acids which are essential for the health of any living creature. The calories from fat are often called "empty calories" in dietary terminology. Most insectivorous reptiles will receive greater benefit from a high protein/low fat diet.

Source - http://www.leedspetshops.co.uk/index.php?main_page=page&id=81]​

Read more: http://www.beardeddragonforum.com/index.php?threads/basic-bd-care-sheet-a-place-to-start.5177/#ixzz22DQ6OHhr​

 

[BeardieBaby]

Thank you very much Germ! The only problem I have is that the Petsmart and Petco are the only pet stores near me, and I am not 100% positive if they sell the calcium without phosphorus. I am going to go there today, but if they don't have it, do you recommend any good websites that sells it? And also, I am a bit worried because I have been giving my baby vitamin D every day only once a day because that is what I was told when I first got him...now I realize that is too much. Do you think I already caused damage to Baby? Other than the incident the other day he is acting fine and normal so I am hoping since its only been a short time I have enough time to reverse the damage if any!

 

[Germ]

No worries, the chances of reaching excessive levels of oral Vitamin D3 are very slim. While some do, there are very few products with a sufficient concentration of Vit D3 to do any damage. The relevant statement in the quote above is a precautionary measure from the source I derived the info from, when I wrote the Care Sheet.

Both stores that you have mentioned will have it without Vit D3. It's the RepCal with the green label, with D3 has a pink label. RepCal is what I use.

 

[blackclaw83]

All the stores around me carry RepCal with the Pink, and the Multi vit with Vit D, None of them with out Vit D. With Spazz hateing everything dusted and use having to gut load everything with his cal and vit it was a toss up with what to do.....so we gut load 1 batch with cal and we feed him those all week except the 1 day we would feed him the ones with the multi vit. Now we are feeding him veggies all day long and Phx worms. so no more need for cal from what i understod and once a week now we dust the worms with multi vit. For some reason he eats worms dusted..........picky picky picky

 

[BeardieBaby]

I actually found the Calcium without phosphorous and D3 at a website called entirelypets.com. The prices are pretty good! You should check it out! They also have cheaper reptile things on amazon.com.

 

[blackclaw83]

Thx for the info. I will. 3 more inchs for Spazz and i will be able to start using sand in his home....I CANT WAIT>........

 

[BeardieBaby]

Sand is not a very good idea for Beardies because they can eat it and get impacted. You're better off getting ReptiCarpet. I am sure everyone has their own opinion on this, but I have heard to many sad stories about beardies eating the sand and dying.

 

[blackclaw83]

Thats only Calsand. Play sand does not have the additive that makes it clump together if it gets wet which causes the impacted. You sift all big pebbles out, then bake it at 200 degrees for 2 hours and let cool to room temp and its safe to go....

 

[blackclaw83]

Cali Sand is made from pure calcium carbonate, ground down then dyed to the color provided. It is dusty {which is bad for your baby} and clumps when it gets wet. Thus causing impacting and often times death.

Play sand, bought and home depo, ace, or any home improvement store, indoors as to not have been in the weather. Make sure it has been sifted, even still you will be doing this you self as well, baking it at 200 degrees for 2 hours will of course kill anything growing on it. Then cool to room temp to be on safe side. Sand does not clump when wet like Cali Sand, and what if any impacting occurs its minor unlike Cali Sand. Its more like nature then man made.

Just tring to help you out Beardie Baby, want the best for you and your little one you know. Also check out

http://www.reptilescanada.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57023

 

[BeardieBaby]

Thanks for the info!!!!

 

[Germ]

All the stores around me carry RepCal with the Pink, and the Multi vit with Vit D, None of them with out Vit D. With Spazz hateing everything dusted and use having to gut load everything with his cal and vit it was a toss up with what to do.....so we gut load 1 batch with cal and we feed him those all week except the 1 day we would feed him the ones with the multi vit. Now we are feeding him veggies all day long and Phx worms. so no more need for cal from what i understod and once a week now we dust the worms with multi vit. For some reason he eats worms dusted..........picky picky picky

That is so untrue, that dusting is not needed if you feed Phoenix worms. They are not the cure all that they would like you to believe them to be. If you fed absolutely nothing else but Pheonix Worms, no greens, no veggies, not fruit, no other insects, nothing else, you might be able to get away with no dusting, because they themselves have a decent Calcium to phosphorous ratio in the ball park of what is needed. But if anything else is fed, dusting is still necessary to make up for their poor ratios. Phoenix worms have 150% the fat that crix do. You cannot gutload Phoenix worms. So as I said, they are by far, not the cure all that they would like people to believe them to be.

@ Beardiebaby - On the Sand issue, that is exactly all they are, are Stories. In the 10+ years I have been in the hobby, I have yet to see, hear, or read, one actual documented instance where Strained Washed Children's Play Sand was proven to be the cause of an impaction. Now if you use gravel or sand with large pebbles in it, well, that is not the sand's fault, that is just plain 'Poor Husbandry'. The stories stem from people using sand as a scapegoat because they won't admit other husbandry errors like poor hydration or heat, etc. Issues that are very true with Calci-Sand as Blackclaw mentioned, are also confused & combined into blaming all sand. I have used Strained Children's Washed Play Sand for all my BDs 10+" long since day 1, for over 10 years without issues. My first BD is keeping my neice, is still very healthy & reasonably active & has been on Play Sand his whole adult life as all of mine have been.

 

[BeardieBaby]

Oh wow, that's good information to know! That's what I hate about the internet, so many people have so many different opinions and all the pet stores have different opinions its hard to tell what the heck to do sometimes! But thank you for this info! Good to know!

 

[Pat B]

@BeardieBaby....I have looked at other dragon forums and there is none better than this one. There are many experienced beardie owners here that will give you the correct information. As far as pet stores are concerned....I wouldn't trust anything that someone from pet store told me about beardies. They will tell you crap just to make a sale. This is the place to be!!

 

[BeardieBaby]

I agree with you Pat! This site has helped me WAY more than any other website or pet store definitely!!!! Without you beardie lovers, I'd be lost!

 

[blackclaw83]

Hey Beardie Baby Sry for giving you the wrong info. I went back and re read the thread that Germ was talking about. I do apologize. I do not like giveing bad advise.........

 

[Pat B]

YEP!! Gotta love BDF!!

 

[Pat B]

Hey Beardie Baby Sry for giving you the wrong info. I went back and re read the thread that Germ was talking about. I do apologize. I do not like giveing bad advise.........

That is how we all learn....

 

[blackclaw83]

 

[BeardieMama]

@ Beardiebaby - On the Sand issue, that is exactly all they are, are Stories. In the 10+ years I have been in the hobby, I have yet to see, hear, or read, one actual documented instance where Strained Washed Children's Play Sand was proven to be the cause of an impaction. Now if you use gravel or sand with large pebbles in it, well, that is not the sand's fault, that is just plain 'Poor Husbandry'. The stories stem from people using sand as a scapegoat because they won't admit other husbandry errors like poor hydration or heat, etc. Issues that are very true with Calci-Sand as Blackclaw mentioned, are also confused & combined into blaming all sand. I have used Strained Children's Washed Play Sand for all my BDs 10+" long since day 1, for over 10 years without issues. My first BD is keeping my neice, is still very healthy & reasonably active & has been on Play Sand his whole adult life as all of mine have been.

Thank you for clarifying this information. When I got Harry he was on sand. It was a dark gold color. I was told to get rid of it it wasn't good for him, so hubby got pergo flooring and Harry was miserable, I got the kids play sand and sifted it and washed it and baked it. However the humidity in his enclosure went way up because it is summer here in NH and Very humid so the sand acted like beach sand more or less. I had to remove it and now he has really nice tile in his enclosure. He is not happy, but I was nervous about the sand. Now I can make him happy again and once the temps go down in humidity I can put his sand back.