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juvenile bearded dragon not eating

Dennis Cronin

Juvenile Dragon
Messages
120
Sorry for long post. Wanted to provide details.

Got a baby beardie. He wasn't eating, only ate 2.5 crickets in two weeks. Cage temp 90-95 degrees, basking bulb and UV bulb, water, misting twice daily, a couple baths, fresh greens and fruit every day. Tried feeding him both in his main cage and in a separate little carrier. Then after two weeks he died. I'd had him out of the cage and he was running on my chest, seemed fine, not overly skinny. But then an hour later I noticed he was in a funny position in the cage. And he was already stiffening up.

Got another beardie, this time a nice plump "juvenile." Got him home, he immediately ate 4 crickets and I thought, yeah, this is how it should be.

But he hasn't really eaten since. At first we were handling him a bit because the lady at the pet store said we should get him used to it. But then I read here that can stress them out, so I've been leaving him alone. I'm putting crickets in the main cage, a 40 gallon divided in two. Also gave him some dubia roaches yesterday. He shows not interest.

He drank some water from an eye dropper this morning. Doesn't seem skinny but also has stopped having big poops. At first he had a pencil-thickness dark green poops about 0.75 inches long each day. Now he just has kinda skinny little clear-ish ones.

We live in Arizona and have had the cage on the back porch figuring he'd like the warmth. Moved the cage inside this morning. As I said, it's a 40 gallon cage but I've subdivided it with a piece of wood as recommended here. Minimal stuff in the cage so the crickets and dubia roaches can't hide.

Any ideas what to try? I'm a bit paranoid about loosing another one obviously. See attached pics to see how he looks and see his setup. Thanks.
 

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Mungi's Buddha

Bearded Dragon Veteran
1,000+ Post Club
Messages
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Location
Mungi's World- Dayton,Ohio
Welcome to the BDF Community! From your post and pictures it appears that you haven't been given proper instructions on these creatures and their proper care or requirements. This is very common as most pet shop employees are not trained on this either and at best only have general knowledge of the creature.
You have come to the right place and we will try to get you up to speed on their care so that you can provide your new dragon the right things he needs to survive and thrive.
First it is perfectly fine having him in a 40 gallon Breeder tank for the start and if that is what you have it will be large enough to house him throughout his life. I will point out that from your photos it appears that there are water spots on the glass. You mentioned that you have been misting him. This is really not necessary and if done should never be done inside his enclosure. Also under no circumstances should any creature be put outside in a glass enclosure. Doing that is much the same as putting them under a magnifying glass in the sun and temperatures inside the tank can rise drastically and quickly and be much higher than the outside temperature resulting in you essentially cooking your dragon. Taking a bearded dragon outside is great when the temperatures are warm enough and the natural sunlight does wonders for them but it should only be done with you holding them or if you have a suitable non-glass (wire) enclosure provided for them that they can not not escape from. An outdoor enclosure should also have a hide or shaded area where they can get out of the sun when they want.
You menetioned that you have a basking light but not what size. The basking light needs to be of sufficient wattage to maintain the basking spot at 110 degrees F for baby and juvi dragons. This is a very key part of the setup. 90-95 degrees will not do and will partly explain why your dragon is not eating. They need that heat and proper UV lighting in order to digest food. Without it they can not so they wont eat. It also puts them into a high stress mode and the first sign of stress in reptiles as well as many other creatures is going off food.
Bearded dragons require along with a proper basking light, a 10.0 or 10% UV light. I recommend and use only the ReptiSun or ReptiGlo tube-type bulbs and on a 40 gallon breeder tank I recommend using an 18" bulb. You can use an inexpensice 18" under the cabinet mount fixture for the bulb and those fixtures can be found usually at Walmart for under 10 bucks. The bulb you will have to get from a pet supply shop or online. I also recommend mounting the UV light just under the rim of the tank at the top to the back glass and side glass. here is a picture of the correct mounting. Doing so will give your dragon full unfiltered UV light which is best for him and your UV bulb will be good for 1 year.
UVmountOne600x486_zps91a9ad00.jpg


Your basking light and UV light need to be setup inline with eachother so that the center of the UV lamp is inline with the basking light and so that both lights shine down on the basking spot. This will be where your dragon will spend the majority of his time. Here is a diagram of how to line up the lighting.
Light.jpg


You will have to purchase two(2) Digital Thermometers w/ remote probes. They are essential to making sure his temps are correct and that he has the proper gradient in his enclosure. One of the probes must be attached directly to the basking spot (not near it but direct on it). This one will give you his basking spot temp and as mentioned previously he needs it to be 110 degrees F during the day. The second probe needs to be mounted in the coolest part of his enclosure to get his cool side temp. The coolside day temp needs to be 80-85 degrees F.
No other lighting is required for your dragon but if you want some ambient light on the cool side during the day then use a very low watt household florescent bulb which wont give off additional heat. I use a 13 watt coil type florescent bulb on our dragon's coolside.

(Btw you can view his enclosure by clicking on the banner at the bottom of my posts. We run a free live streaming webcam on his enclosure 7days a week 7am to 7pm eastern time, Be aware that you may not see him because he is currently brumating and spend most of his time asleep on the coolside of his enclosure.)

Your dragon doesnt need daily baths or misting. A simple 20-25 minute soak in chest high 105 degreeF water once per week is plenty. The only exception to this is during a shed in which case you may want to give him an extra soak that week to ease the shedding process.

It takes 10+ days for a dragon to acclimate to any changes in their environment. During the acclimation period handling should be kept bto the minimum needed for cleaning or bathing. Also you should try and reduce or eliminate any unnecessary traffic or excess noise near his enclosure. These dragons stress very easily and must be given a proper acclimation period to settle in. Stress is the number one cause of illness. Give them a bit of time and there will be plenty of time after for handling them.
The above are just a few of the basic requirements. You can learn the rest from the links I am providing here. Once you have read through the info in those links should you have any other questions or concerns dont hesitate to shout out. The BDF Community is chockfull of eager,enthusiastic and experienced "Beardie Folk" that are here to help you and your dragon have a long, happy and healthy adventure together!

Enjoy!
Mungi's Buddha

Basic BD Care Sheet-A Place to Start

Bearded Dragon Exclusive Care Library

Bearded Dragon Diet Nutritional Information

Bearded Dragon Co-Habitation-A Good Plan???

How To Sex A Bearded Dragon
 

Noella

Bearded Dragon Veteran
3 Year Member
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2,802
Location
Georgia
Yes, he needs time to acclimate to his new surroundings including his home. (Tank). He suffering from relocation stress which could cause a difference in eating habits and pooping habits. He'll develop his own routine.

Sorry about your previous beardie, but can you give us your temps and other items you've got for him/her. What type of UVB and how are you taking your temperatures? Are you using a probe thermometer? Baby beardies require a basking spot of 100-110 degrees.
 

Dennis Cronin

Juvenile Dragon
Messages
120
The cage was on a shaded porch, so no, I don't think we cooked him. At least I hope not. Temps are hitting 100 degrees down here already but I don't think the shade on the porch was getting that.

For thermometers I'm just using a dual analog temp/humidity thing I got at the pet shop. It's mounted on the glass near the top of the cage on the cool side. I'll get digital. Any suggestions where to get the remote probe things you mention?

I'll also look at the bulb wattages tonight. At the pet store guy's recommendation I bought a dual bulb hood that sits on the screen. It has an incandescent bulb for the basking and a CFL looking thing for the UV, also recommended by Petsmart.

The water spots are on the outside cuz my littlest boy likes to spray the cage. But I'll back off on the misting sounds like. How about giving water to drink via the eye dropper? I don't have evidence he's drinking otherwise but he seemed pretty happy to have drops of water delivered.

I think his environment is pretty peaceful, certainly compared to the pet store where people were walking by all day and peering in. But I'll try to make it more so.

Thanks for the fast response.

Dennis
 

Noella

Bearded Dragon Veteran
3 Year Member
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2,802
Location
Georgia
You're welcome. You can buy them at Walmart or @ petmountain.com.

I use a 75 watt halogen flood light and a 50 watt infrared light that's used only if I've got the halogen flood light on. I don't use any infrared lights on at night. They don't need them and can see the red and black heat lights. The only thing that would work if your house falls below 65 degrees is a Ceramic Heat Emitter during the cold winter months and you're not able to keep the temps high enough for him.

Petmountain's got some great deals on reptile products such as calcium, herptivite mulitvitamins, and UVB lights. (I use the Reptisun 10.0 for Allie and her colors really come out.) You can buy one of those fixtures in light department at walmart and hang it up with command strips.

Be aware that most pet store chains will you sell you things you don't exactly need. Like calci-sand or crushed walnut shells to use as bedding. (Do NOT use either products because they do clump and cause impaction.) I've had someone tell me that calci-sand is a fine substrate and they haven't had any problems with it. I did an experiment with the calci-sand and seeing that it clumps isn't a great substrate after all. I never use calci-sand or crushed walnut. For substrates, I use paper towels and newspaper. I tried using sifted play sand once or twice. She didn't like it. (Must be too gritty and sandy for her little toes! :D)
 

Mungi's Buddha

Bearded Dragon Veteran
1,000+ Post Club
Messages
1,122
Location
Mungi's World- Dayton,Ohio
Noella is correct in that pet shops will sell you all manner of stuff that you do not want nor need.
As far a a basking bulb I use and recommend standard household Halogen indoor floodlights. Mungi's 40 gallon Breeder tank enclosure has a 75 watt that is suspended approximately 8 +/- inches above the tank. I could us a 55 watt but only had a 75 watt on hand last time I changed it out.
As for using infrared lights in addition to the basking light I don't see any reason for it nor would I recommend using one. If the Halogen bulb does not produce sufficient heat then you aren't using a high enough wattage bulb. Halogen lights put out a lot of heat per watt.
I am not a fan of the dual light dome fixtures and were it me I would ask for my money back. I would instead get a single deep dome fixture for the basking light and do the tube UV light setup that I provided for you already.
On the same not I don't recommend using the coil-type UV bulbs. The tube type will provide much better UV light for your dragon.
Extra hydration via droppers or water dishes isn't usually required. Most dragons will not drink from a standing water source. They will get the hydration they need from the live prey you feed them. Just make sure that your live feeders are well hydrated and properly gut loaded before feeding them to your dragon.
Also when you give your dragon the soaks as I mentioned in my previous post they will absorb need moisture through there skin as well as draw in moisture or " drink" through their vent. This is an adaptation that they have due to being designed for dry desert climates.
So if while giving him his soak you don't see him drinking fear not because he is.
On a similar note do not put a water dish in his enclosure. It will serve no other purpose than to raise the humidity which is not what he needs or wants.
The analog thermometer is useless and not accurate. Also having it placed near the top of his enclosure as you stated will give the temp at the top of his enclosure where it is attached. Regardless the temp will be wrong.
The digital thermometers w/remote probes can be found many places on the net and you can also find them at Petsmart too. Go to the aquarium section and get the ones there. They are around 9 dollars a piece. They do carry ones in the reptile section but they are more expensive usually and no better then the ones in the aquarium section so save yourself a few bucks. Online they can be found for as little as 5 or 6 bucks most times.
Please read through the info I provided in the links. There is a wealth of knowledge found in them.
Will check back later this evening should you have any other questions.
Enjoy!
 

Dennis Cronin

Juvenile Dragon
Messages
120
Thanks. I'd read a couple of the things at this site already, working my way thru the Exclusive Care Library now. I think I'll stay with the double dome and just put two different small halogens in so I can regulate temp by turning on/off combos. Sound reasonable?

I ordered a couple thermometers and a Reptisun 10 15" from petmountain.com.

In their defense, the folks at Petsmart really seemed pretty knowledgeable and were trying. The main girl and guy I talked to both raise beardies at home and the girl breeds dubias for them. She knew pretty well what she was talking about. She suggested dividing the cage, told me not to use sand, and the guy tried to help me understand the need for lighting. But I wasn't prepared for how tricky these little fellers can be at first. I've had anoles before and had no issues with them. Thought beardies would be similar, but mellower and less likely to dart off.

Thanks again.

Dennis
 

Mungi's Buddha

Bearded Dragon Veteran
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Indeed that is another option as far as keeping and using the double dome if you wish.
Once you get his enclosure correct he should perk up and start back to eating again. The ReptiSun tube UV will make a big difference for him too especially if you will mount it like I suggested. That mounting will also save you some bucks as well. See when UV lights are obstructed by a screen it will filter out up to 50% of the UV output and the bulbs therefore are only good for 6months before having to be replaced. By mounting it inside the tank where it is not filtered it will be good for a solid year.
Also if you go with the under cabinet mount fixtures I was talking about and the one you purchase has a plastic shield over the bulb remember to remove and toss that shield as it will render the UV light useless.
I was not coming down on you earlier about placing your dragon outside and was warning only because I have known folks that thought nothing of sticking the tanks out on the patio in the sun,all the while meaning well but coming back to a dead or very ill animal.
That is good that your Petsmart folks were helpful or at least tried to be helpful, most arent and I will point out that although they might have known a little about beardies they did not know the whole requirements and still sold you things that were not what you really needed nor what is best for your dragon's health. My personal opinion is that if you are going to sell a creature no matter what that creature is that it is your responsibility to make sure that the new owner of that creature goes home with exactly what that creature needs to both survive and thrive. Halfway or part way doesn't cut it because the creatures life and well being is at stake and the customer is spending their hard earned dollars and trusting that they are getting the right info and right things to take care of their new family member.
On a different note when I was a kid growing up in the swamps of Southern Louisiana we use to catch Anoles all the time. We used to use them as earrings...Lol....most folks don't know but if you hold an Anole up to your earlobe they will bite and hang on all day long :eek: lol...lots of us kids would walk around all day with them hanging from our earlobes until they would finally drop off and scamper away...doesn't hurt when they latch...cheap jewelry for Cajun kids :D
Anyway if you have any more questions or concerns we are here to help and to make sure you always get the right answers when concerning these amazing creatures we all love! Welcome aboard and look forward to updates and watching your lil dragon become a big strong dragon!
Enjoy!
 

Dennis Cronin

Juvenile Dragon
Messages
120
I used to go out in the alley and catch live flies with this little thing I made out of a baggie and a coat hanger. Then I'd release them in the anole's cage. Very fun to watch 'em go after the flies.

I suspect it'll take a couple days for petmountain stuff to get here. Adjusted the lights so at least they're going direct instead of thru screen. His little daily fruit salad looks really tasty until you spot the one wax worm I throw in there.
 

Mungi's Buddha

Bearded Dragon Veteran
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Just a caution but you don't want to feed your dragon live wild caught feeders since you don't know what those feeders have been exposed to. Opens the door for chemical poisoning as well as parasites.
Will let you in on a not so well kept secret...For years I have used the policy that I don't feed any of our critters any food that I haven't tried myself...Lol...Waxworms have a tangy nutty taste to them:)
Feed waxworms only as an occasion treat. They are high in fat so not a viable staple food. To dragons they are like candy and dragons will get very spoiled very quickly and then turn their noses up to other more suitable live prey. Should that happen you will have to do a bit of tough love and cut them off the waxworks only offering his crickets or roaches and waiting him out until he gets hungry. He will not starve himself but may hold out a few days
trying to get more waxworms.:)
Enjoy!
 

Mungi's Buddha

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Well I don't exactly make a meal out of the stuff but I do try em. I figure how can you expect them to eat something you won't,right? It's something I was taught early in my life. My parents never made me eat anything they wouldn't eat first either...lol...fair is fair after all!:D
 

Dennis Cronin

Juvenile Dragon
Messages
120
Yeah, haven't done the fly catching thing for a couple decades, since "hot rocks." And blech to the eating worms thing. Sorry, won't go there with you.

Little guy just let a cricket climb all over him again this morning. Sure wish he'd eat something.
 

Noella

Bearded Dragon Veteran
3 Year Member
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Georgia
Mine hates it when crickets climb on her. She shakes her head and gives me the evil eye like it's my fault.

I just wouldn't eat them unless I was out in the wild and had nothing to eat. I'd probably close my eyes, plug my nose, and eat them. But you know, they do make chocolate covered crickets and ants.
 

Dennis Cronin

Juvenile Dragon
Messages
120
Update from tonight. Still not eating. I watched crickets and dubias walk right in front of him and he shows no interest. I was getting concerned about dehydration from reading stuff here so I ran some warm water in the tub and put him in there. He stood there on tippy toe and barely moved the whole time. I finally took him out after 20 minutes because he looked so uncomfortable standing up like that.

Lifted up his enclosure repti-carpet and there were about 7 dubias and a cricket under there. An odd one now and then walks around the enclosure. Hasn't eaten any of the salad or the wax worm.

He's been home 9 days now but I've only been trying to keep his life super calm for the last 5 or so. Before that I was trying to handle him because that's what the pet lady said to get him used to.

Got a ship notice from petmountain today. Not sure when that means the light and thermometers will arrive but should be soon.

Oh, and no poopies today. Any other suggestions?

Dennis
 

Mungi's Buddha

Bearded Dragon Veteran
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The acclimation period is usually 10+ days for these guys. That complicated by improper set up and too much handling too soon will throw them for a huge loop. Hopefully when the rest of the stuff you ordered gets in and his setup and temps get right then he will feel like eating.
Its really important to keep offering to him and to give him some room.
I do know that you are trying to get things right for him now but be aware that when these creatures get extremely stressed it lowers their immune system which can make them very ill and can also open the door for parasite outbreaks. They naturally carry coccidia for instance and under normal conditions that is kept in control by their system however when they are stressed sometimes the coccidia levels get out of control which is not a good thing.
Not trying to worry you but instead just making you aware of potential other issues. More than likely he was stressed long before you got him home. I have yet to see a Petsmart that was housing them in a correct setup or providing them proper nutrition.
That is one reason it is doubly important to have a proper setup already up and going before bringing them home. Most folks don't but things would be much easier and better if they would.
Anyway, once you get his setup right hopefully he will spring back. These creatures are amazingly resilient as well.
Enjoy!
 

Dennis Cronin

Juvenile Dragon
Messages
120
Cleaned his cage this morning which meant he had to spend a few minutes in the carrier. I used a little kid vacuum and removed all the crickets and dubias and put them back in their respective cages. I figured I'd give him a little time to wonder where the food is, hoping that when I put some in later this afternoon he pays attention. He's got a nice little salad as always.

How 'bout "gut loading" those crickets? I know I can buy cricket food but I seem to recall that you can make your own too. Recommendation? And if he would eat I guess I'd want to dust the crickets with calcium power or something, right?

Dennis
 

Mungi's Buddha

Bearded Dragon Veteran
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The crickets and roaches need to be gut loaded and hydrated for at least 24 hours before offering them to your dragon. Crickets in fact don't offer a whole heap of nutrition otherwise.
Yes you can use a commercial gut load to do it. They sell it at Petsmart, in in fact. Or you can make your own for a whole lot better and cheaper like I do.
Everybody has their own recipe or their own little twist. Best thing to do is get on the Net and Google cricket gut load recipe and you will find plenty of good ones. The roaches can have the same gut load you give the crickets.
In addition you need to dust the live prey before you offer them. In the basic care guide there is a schedule of supplementation and will tell you how often and which supplement you need to dust with depending on the age bracket of the dragon. It requires that you have three(3) different powdered supplements on hand to do it right. You will need Calcium with and without D3 as well as a vitamin supplement.
Also as far as the feeders go it is important to remove any live prey that he hasn't eaten before light out every night. If not they will come out and keep your dragon from getting a proper rest period and can even nibble on the dragon while he sleeps.
When you offer his "salad" most times it works best about an hour after they wake and then an hour or two after that offer the live prey.
The size of the live prey makes a difference too. If they are too large then many dragons will shy away from them.
The rule of thumb is never feed anything larger than the space between your dragon's eyes.
Just trying to think of other possibilities that might help get him eating again quicker for you.
Have you noticed any signs of an impending shed? It's not uncommon for them to go off food before and during a shed cycle and little ones shed quite frequently when growing.
Again once you get the enclosure right and him a bit of time things should look a lot better.
 

Dennis Cronin

Juvenile Dragon
Messages
120
Another day, no eating. Waited until early afternoon and put one cricket and one dubia in the cage. Showed no interest. Salad again shows not indication it was touched. Sipped a tiny bit of water out of an eyedropper and then turned his head away.

Man, I gotta admit I'm feeling a bit frustrated. I've spent a lot of time and money trying to figure out how to make these guys feel comfortable and I'm starting to think they're just not very good in captivity. I'm sure I'm not 100% on the mark but I'm way more attentive than I'd expect the average person to be.

Dennis
 

Pat B

Super Moderator
Messages
1,469
Location
Columbia SC
You can only do your best. The information in this thread is very good and accurate. Make sure the temps are correct and lighting also. Continue to give him food/greens everyday. Some beardies take longer to acclimate than others. Patience....that is a tough word. Good luck! :cool:
 
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