I am new to the forum and looking for info on Bearded Dragons with MBD or Neurological disorders

[xHagIaSophia]

We have a five month old bearded dragon. We named his Arbiter from the halo games on Xbox...Anyway, we have had him since he was three months old. We bought him at the local pet sense pet store. He has a reptisun 10 UVB, a mesh hardware cloth top on his tank as well as a heat lamp. We also dust his crickets with calcium five days a week, cal d3 twice a week and multi vits two days a week. Anyway, Arbiter gorilla walks on his front paws, so we have been assuming he had MBD and have been trying to treat it. But his back legs have gotten worse. He has an issue where they will seize up after chasing crickets for a while and they sometimes fly in the air as well, like he can not control them. So we took him to the vet yesterday. The vet says Arbiter has a drooping lip, which we do not see, and neurological damage, advanced MBD and three parasites. The vet gave him a calcium shot and FENBENDAZOLE for the parasites so far. He has coccidia, giardia and pinworms. The vet says it is a severe case of worms. He did not say what treatment will be next but said Arbiter may or may not make it, we will have to see, for us to use the coil UVB rather than the reptisun 10, to up his heat lamp from 100-105 to 120 which we think would literally fry him. It just seems the vet does not know a lot of what he is talking about. We are sure he has MBD or even a neurological disorder, so we are just looking for input from others for insight. Here are some pictures of him a link to youtube which shows him walking this morning.

 

[Hdrydr31]

Welcome to the forum..
I would first recommend seeing another vet is the vet you saw an exotic vet? I as because coil UVB bulbs are not a good source of Vit D and can burn their eyes as they are too focused.. the Reptisun T5 HO 10.0 is way better! I don't see a drooping lip, at his young age catching the MBD quickly is key and you can stop the progression as long as you are diligent with the calcium levels.. Did the vet do any xrays or bloodwork to see what his levels are? This is hard on them so be aware of that. Xrays will show what his bones look like now and will be important to keep tabs on for the future...
All dragons have low levels of pinworms and cocidea normally it's when they are stressed that those numbers can get out of whack.. I would increase temp around 107-110 make sure your UVB is overlapping with your heat as they need them at the same time to change and absorb the nutrients..

Make sure your set up is safe from him falling and from tipping over which would be bad as they can't breathe upside down..

 

[xHagIaSophia]

Thank you for replying. It has been worrying us because we are so attached to Arbiter. The vet gave us a very poor prognosis for him...The vet is listed as treating exotic animals as well as other common pets. However, with all the things he said to us, some of which contradicted his own print out he sent home with us, we are not sure how familiar he is with exotic pets. The vet made it sound like Arbiter will die BUT can live, like a slight chance. he said we may have a handicap lizard, but said it is a bit of distain like that is something he would not want himself. He said he has a "severe" case of the worms I listed. Gave him a dose of the FENBENDAZOLE like I said and said he would give him something more later if needed for the other worms. He told us not to even hold Arbiter anymore, but he himself hardly looked at him and when he did he man handled him like he was a toy or something for long enough to give him the shot and the worm meds, but still hardly looked him Arbiter, he looked at us the whole time. He says Arbiter has multiple fractures and breaks from the past, he did not do an xray. Then he said he has neurological disorder as well, as he could tell from a "drooping lip" which we do not see. And he said Arbiter has Advanced MBD. He told us to raise his temps to 120, which would fry him...He also said to use the coil and we ARE NOT using the coil, we have the tube. He said the tube was worse and to go back to the coil which we are not doing. And he said for us to not mist him, he does not need water...The vet even said the urate in the poop is NOT urine...So I am not sure how much this man knows. He also did not do bloodwork. Only took the fecal sample we brought with us from home.

 

[Hdrydr31]

Thank you for replying. It has been worrying us because we are so attached to Arbiter. The vet gave us a very poor prognosis for him...The vet is listed as treating exotic animals as well as other common pets. However, with all the things he said to us, some of which contradicted his own print out he sent home with us, we are not sure how familiar he is with exotic pets. The vet made it sound like Arbiter will die BUT can live, like a slight chance. he said we may have a handicap lizard, but said it is a bit of distain like that is something he would not want himself. He said he has a "severe" case of the worms I listed. Gave him a dose of the FENBENDAZOLE like I said and said he would give him something more later if needed for the other worms. He told us not to even hold Arbiter anymore, but he himself hardly looked at him and when he did he man handled him like he was a toy or something for long enough to give him the shot and the worm meds, but still hardly looked him Arbiter, he looked at us the whole time. He says Arbiter has multiple fractures and breaks from the past, he did not do an xray. Then he said he has neurological disorder as well, as he could tell from a "drooping lip" which we do not see. And he said Arbiter has Advanced MBD. He told us to raise his temps to 120, which would fry him...He also said to use the coil and we ARE NOT using the coil, we have the tube. He said the tube was worse and to go back to the coil which we are not doing. And he said for us to not mist him, he does not need water...The vet even said the urate in the poop is NOT urine...So I am not sure how much this man knows. He also did not do bloodwork. Only took the fecal sample we brought with us from home.

I would highly suggest seeing a different vet one that specializes in exotics as in my opinion yes his legs are messed up his body looks fine nice and straight.. He's young still so the damage isn't horrible and he isn't all disfigured. Yes you will likely have a special needs boy but he can still gain strength and more use of his legs if under proper care and the help of a qualified vet.. He can't know if he had broken bones without xrays, even bad cases of worms isn't a death sentence per say again he's young. He is likely saying he has neuro issues because of how he walks right now. I don't see anything wrong with his lips. 120 is too high IMO 107-110F . Glad your sticking with the tube UVB! Baths are great just with his mobility issues be right there and prop him up.. He told you that the urate wasn't urine?? lol He needs bloodwork to see what his calcium levels are for his MBD, some xrays to see what kind of shape his legs are in, and deworming... Make sure you give him some probiotics as the meds are really hard on their bellies..

 

[xHagIaSophia]

Yes this vet said that urate was not the urine, only wet watery stuff that comes out around the poop and the urate is the urine...I know we are new to dragons but from what I have read the watery stuff is just excess water or diarrhea even and not the urine, the urate is the urine. But Arbiter has an appointment for Saturday with another Vet. The only other exotic pet vet near us, BUT she does own reptiles herself and she does not see other animals like the other vet, she only sees exotic pets...This vet just seemed to be a know it all, but was so wrong about everything. He injected Arbiter with a calcium shot in his stomach even. I am not sure if that was the right place or not, but Arbiter is definitely acting sickly now, when he was not before. He only had walking issues before. I do not know if it was the calcium shot, the worm med or what, but his personality is different, he is not very playful, he can barely walk at all right now as well. He wants to stay in his water right now too so we have to watch him with that. Maybe he is just sore. Do you know if the shot or the worm meds have any side effects? Like dehydration or something maybe that makes them feel sickly for a few days after? Anyway, If he is special needs, we can handle that. I just do not want him to die. So aside from him not feeling well now and us watching him closely, what you said made me feel better. We are getting him the probiotics today and some bee pollen too plus he has some dubia roaches coming. We are hoping they are higher nutrition than the crickets, so maybe that will help boost him back to being playful.

 

[BeardedHippy]

my diagnosis is, that vet may have a neurological disorder. True that diagnososis was reached with very little supporting evidence, but that seems to be acceptable enough for him

 

[Hdrydr31]

Yes this vet said that urate was not the urine, only wet watery stuff that comes out around the poop and the urate is the urine...I know we are new to dragons but from what I have read the watery stuff is just excess water or diarrhea even and not the urine, the urate is the urine. But Arbiter has an appointment for Saturday with another Vet. The only other exotic pet vet near us, BUT she does own reptiles herself and she does not see other animals like the other vet, she only sees exotic pets...This vet just seemed to be a know it all, but was so wrong about everything. He injected Arbiter with a calcium shot in his stomach even. I am not sure if that was the right place or not, but Arbiter is definitely acting sickly now, when he was not before. He only had walking issues before. I do not know if it was the calcium shot, the worm med or what, but his personality is different, he is not very playful, he can barely walk at all right now as well. He wants to stay in his water right now too so we have to watch him with that. Maybe he is just sore. Do you know if the shot or the worm meds have any side effects? Like dehydration or something maybe that makes them feel sickly for a few days after? Anyway, If he is special needs, we can handle that. I just do not want him to die. So aside from him not feeling well now and us watching him closely, what you said made me feel better. We are getting him the probiotics today and some bee pollen too plus he has some dubia roaches coming. We are hoping they are higher nutrition than the crickets, so maybe that will help boost him back to being playful.

I'm VERY glad to hear that you've got a appointment with an actual exotic vet Sat... I don't think the shots go in the belly but I'm not a vet I think they go in the upper arm.. The dewormer he gave will make the little ones not feel very well as i mentioned they are really harsh on their bellies. I wouldn't allow him to soak in the water dish like that it can add humidity to his tank that can lead to upper resp issues.. you can bathe him in the sink with warm water up to his elbows (or lower since he is mobility chall) . you can use the childrens cultural just make sure the powder is not flavored. they have them in little packets that are great. Dubia roaches are fantastic feeders!! you can also get him some silkworms as they contain serrapetase that will help the meds work better. Crickets are known to carry pinworms..

 

[xHagIaSophia]

To update you all, we went on and took him early to the other exotic vet. I called right before lunch today because he was acting so tired. She took him in and we left him for her to observe him for a while. On the other vet, she said this must be the ONLY reptile the other vet has ever seen lol..Anyway, she did an xray and said his bones are not white but are rather gray so he has MBD..But no breaks or fractures. She said he also does have coccidia and it is REALLY high. But the pinworms not to worry about or the Giardia. She did not like the wormer the other vet gave him or that fact that he did not do xrays or send him home with liquid calcium. She said to keep the reptisun 10 tube of course and that these levels of coccidia and the calcium is most likely what is wrong with him but he can recover but it will be slow. She sent him a new wormer for him to take today and then in 48 hours. She also said there is a slight chance he has ADV but that is just in the back of him mind and these two issues are what is there for sure and to tackle first. She is going to see him again in a month to check the coccidia levels and the calcium. She did not like crickets too much as well and was telling us the switch to dubias is much better and to get this guy to start eating his greens as well. He does seem perkier this evening. So hopefully he will start feeling better and I will keep you guys posted as this goes if you like. Thank you all so much for helping.

 

[Hdrydr31]

Oh I am soo glad you took him in early!! Sounds like he is now on the right track with an actual exotic vet! That eases my mind...
Keep us posted on this little one.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[xHagIaSophia]

I will for sure. I will update you guys this week as he is taking his meds and if there is any more improvements and then as the course goes along and the vet tells us how he is doing as. Thank you all for helping. It set my mind at ease and also made us more prone to wanting to go see her as well.

 

[xHagIaSophia]

I wanted to post you guys some update videos of Arbiter. He seems to be doing a little better but still has some worrying issues. Hopefully, from the MBD and not ADV as the vet said that is in the back of her mind but she is not concerned with it right now.

The last one is the one that worries me about ADV. He gets excited when we come into the room and his back legs will fly up. He does sit in the corner of his tank like this too with his head up. But I think it is because he is so close to the glass and looking up for us. He NEVER looks up at any other part of the tank or when he is out.

 

[PatsyB]

OMG, I'm just reading this, that vet needs to stop treating exotics! Glad that he is doing better after seeing the other vet.

ADV is not a death sentence like it once was. We have a friend that had 2 ADV dragons for years. You just need to have patience with them, it is a long difficult road but they can have decent lives if you dedicate the time to them.

Just wanted to mention too, if you have other reptiles you want to practice safe husbandry with this little one. Wash your hands or tools between reptiles and also keep food sources separate. If you feed the little one bugs and he doesn't eat them all, don't put them back in with the rest of the bugs. Coccidia and ADV are highly contagious.

 

[xHagIaSophia]

I did not realize anyone else had commented...Sorry I did not get back sooner. Anyway, I came on to update on Arbiter...We went back to the vet today...He has been on liquid calcium for 30 days..He was also in the middle of a massive shed which she helped him with. Anyway, she said she would have expected a little more progress in his mobility than she saw. But his bones look good and much stronger now...He has not fractures or anything still either...no humps or lumps as well. She thinks what is wrong is neurological and thinks it is something similar to Cerebral palsy in humans. She says she has been reading and researching and from other vets as well across the country there is something going on from specific breeders, she does not know who in particular, that are selling dragons that have something similar to CP. She said some dragons are doing well with it, some are not and Arbiter appears to be on that has it but is doing well with it. So it is neurologically genetic...But as long as he has not had seizures which she says is sometimes common, he is fine. She also said he is nice and fat...maybe too fat...but his mobility is a little poor still and his legs have little resistance when tugged so that says to her it is this other thing. It is not ADV she said. He also had a few pinworms which she says is ok and no coccidia. She said his quality of life looks to be good though he will just be a bit handicap, which is ok...We have a son who has CP. And she said for us to do little exercises with his legs....and continue the calcium for another 30 days and she will check him again...if all is well then he will only need to come back once a year....Anyway, have any of you heard anything of dragons having a form of CP?

 

[PatsyB]

Glad you took him to an exotic vet. I’ve never heard of CP in beardies. I have heard of a certain morph that is prone to seizures. It’s something with a trans. Maybe in the bath you can do those exercises with his legs get him swimming a little while you hold him and make sure he doesn’t go under.

 

[xHagIaSophia]

I found a lady online who rescues beardies and she says she has rescued a few who have something similar to muscular dystrophy. Here is the link to her blog and facebook.

http://sarahsbeardeddragonrescue.blogspot.com/2016/09/muscle-neurological-problems.html

https://www.facebook.com/SquiggyAnMbdBeardedDragon

Anyway, my dragon does walk very similar to hers. Arbiter has to go back to the vet in a few weeks I will let everyone know what she says for there as well.