Ground walnut shells instead of sand?

[dhall79]

Found this at petsmart. Is this going to be okay for my sons beardie? Paid $14.

 

[atochats]

BIG NO. This is not safe for your beardie! Less than ten inches long use reptile carpet or paper towels. Over ten inches you may use washed, sifted children's playsand. This crushed shell stuff poses high risk for impaction please don't risk it.

 

[dhall79]

He is 16 inches now. Just looking to get rid of the carpet. Knew that the vita sand was a no no. Thought that this might be digestible, so would not get impacted. It is very coarse. Slightly bigger grains than play sand. Why is sand so much better?

 

[dhall79]

Done some reading. I see now. But why is play sand OK?

 

[atochats]

Size of particles, dust free, and the fact that pieces won't clump. I don't claim to be an expert but from what I understand these make a huge difference.

 

[Luvthemanimal]

YES NO NO NO to the crushed walnut. And children's washed and sifted play sand is OK as atochats said. But I would still STAY away from it as it still could cause impaction.

Paper towel
Newspaper
Reptile carpet
Tile

Are the more subtitle and SAFEST substrates to use. Yes it looks better for YOU to look at using sand but your beardie could care less. And all we as owners want is the best for them no?

So why RISK it?............

 

[Germ]

Why not to use crushed walnut shells ...

first of I want to warn everybody the link in this post is VERY GRAPHIC and can be disturbing to some people.

The link will take you to a page that has pictures of Dragons autopsy, where the dragon was housed on ground walnut shells.

Again this link is very graphic !!!

http://mrskingsbioweb.com/beardeddragngrossanatomy.htm

Liked the original post & link. I like Graphic Pictures, not because I am morbid or anything, but it shows the effects & gets the point across sooooo much better ...

I have used Washed Playsand for many years. I am in no way stating that is what has to be used, just what is my choice for BDs >10"-12+" & in my opinion is the safest particle substrate, if not the only one I would recommend. I also use raised platforms in all my enclosures for my feeding dishes. I also feed roaches as my main staple diet, which I must feed in a separate feeding enclosure or hand feed, as they will very quickly burrow into the sand. Live treats other than the occasional Cricket feed, I generally hand feed.

In my opinion, with proper husbandry, a well hydrated BD will/should have no adverse effects, even if small amounts are ingested, they will pass right through. Washed Playsand falls apart when moistened as it would be in a well hydrated BDs digestive tract, does not clump like most other particle substrates, there is no binding agent. Now if you use Gravel, or coarse sand, impaction problems can & will arise if ingested, but that is not the Sand's fault, that's just plain 'Poor Husbandry!'.

I agree totally on the possible hazardous effects of Crushed Walnut shells. My favorite saying that I have seen, goes something like this:The problem I have with other 'Organic' substrates such as Bran, Millet, etc., is the problems of when moistened, can mold & harbor bacteria.

I have no wish to get into the 'Age Old' substrate debate. But Washed Playsand is my choice for my sub & adults. If it is too coarse out of the bag, it should be sifted. Some feel it should also be baked, but I never have.

I have also seen posted on several occasions on this forum, that sand should be changed monthly. If that was the case, I would not use it, as there is no way that I'm going to pack 500 lbs of sand up & then back down every month to my 4th floor apt, for all of my enclosures. I change it out every 6+ months or so, more if there is no odor, which there rarely is when spot cleaned daily. I understand the 'harbor Bacteria theory', but Bacteria generally needs a damp environment to thrive, Play sand dries out very quickly, absorbs nothing, it is tiny rocks. It is simply a personal preference issue & what you feel yourself as acceptable minimal risks. This is my choice & method that I have used for 10+ years without issue.

I guess seeing as how my name and opinions have been brought up in this thread then it would only be right that my few cents on the subject be added into the discussion.
First of all to Gillie I'm very glad that you witnessed first hand your dragon passing the sand that he had for whatever reason ingested. I believe as Germ and I have both said many times previously that the fact that washed, sifted children's play-sand is considered a safe alternative substrate for age/size appropriate dragon enclosures is specifically that it does pass safely through the digestive tract and unlike many other particulate substrates available to reptile owners it does not bind up and cause impaction.
While I value your opinion and personal choice to discontinue using it with your dragons I do not see any proof that it did any harm to your dragon nor any reason that a huge red flag should be tossed into the air to cause undo concern or alarm for someone else who currently uses it or might be considering using it as their choice of substrates. And in fact see what you have presented as just further proof that there is no worry as long as your dragon meets the prerequisites for using it as substrate.
The fact remains that washed,sifted children's playsand has been a tried and proven safe alternative substrate choice for dragons 10+ inches snout-tip to tail-tip by 100s of breeders and keepers for decades.
You have mentioned necropsies and not knowing anyone who has gone to the expense of having one performed on a reptile. Now you have because I personally have for many animals under my care over the years including reptiles when there was not a clear cut reason for their demise. As far as ever finding playsand as the cause or even a contributing factor of death I have never found that in a necropsy result. Interestingly however I have found impaction caused by the ingestion of newspaper and paper towels and even repti-carpet which are also other popular substrate choices.
Also I would question as to what was causing your dragon to ingest large amounts of substrate in the first place. Well nourished and well hydrated dragons as well as most other creatures I have ever dealt with don't generally choose substrate ie sand over their food and water to begin with. I would also question as to exactly what is the amount considered "passing more sand than any animal should for any reason"?

Please do not take any of this as a personal attack against you Gillie because it is in no way meant in that spirit. Your opinions and experiences are valued here in this forum by myself as well as many others and it is the purpose of this forum in my view to share experiences both good and bad in hopes of providing and finding sound information that can and will be of benefit to all members of the forum and to better the care and lives of the dragons we all love and care for.
However I believe that you had a single experience that shocked you and because of that single experience have decided to pass judgement as proof of fact when the only fact I see is that your dragon passed the sand straight though without harm just as has been stated it does.No harm No Foul,right?

Substrate choice is of course a personal choice and your choosing to remove the sand is absolutely your choice to make but it does not mean that if someone else chooses to go the playsand route that their choice is any better or worse for the animal. You know not to long ago I changed Mungi's substrate from sand to his present slate tiles. Did I do it because the sand posed a danger to him? N0pe not in the least. I made the choice because when he was ill and I was having to do multiple daily cleanings I removed all substrate and then after he was well again I happened across a tile that I really liked the look of. Would I ever go back to sand? Fact is in a heartbeat if I decided to change his house again but I like the way it looks now and so does he.

I've spent my nickle here so my rant is done...lol
Enjoy!

 

[Germ]

Vincent,
As has been pointed out to you many times in the past you should do more thorough research before condemning something. In this case your info on the use of sand as a substrate in a bearded dragon's enclosure is neither complete nor is it accurate by any means and spreading mis-information based only on your personal preferences without any proof to back what you claim is of no help to anyone. Every few months you pop into these forums and try to spread your gospel on the dangers of using sand substrate and while I certainly appreciate your attempt to participate in the forum I do not appreciate when anyone repeatedly tries to spread wrong and or unfounded information in the forums as it is the purpose of these forums to make sure that folks get the accurate info that they need to properly care for their bearded dragon.

To begin with you have said that in their native habitat bearded dragons do not live in sand but instead hard packed clay substrates. Your answer is only partially correct as they live in hard clay and gravel/rock, scrub forest bed and indeed in sand areas. Those areas are called "traveling sands" by the way and are indeed sand dunes.

You have also claimed that sand substrate poses a high risk of impaction in bearded dragons. While there are some "sand substrates" like CalciSand that do pose impaction risks, this is simply not true for all natural sand substrates and in fact impaction is not as common an occurrence in captivity as most people would be led to believe in the first place. Thousand of bearded dragons do die each year from impaction in their native habitat but it is not caused by sand. The truth is that it is caused by the ingestion of the clay substrate in their environment. These deaths by impaction are not limited to bearded dragons either because many other species suffer the same fate there. By the way the "hard packed clay" that you refer to is actually cracked, flaky,dry and dusty and easily ingested. That is fact.

Sand such as Children's Play-sand does not clump if it is ingested but will in fact simply pass straight through the digestive tract. On the other hand clay clumps together and blocks the digestive tract which is a classic impaction scenario.

Children's Play-sand is and has been used safely and without incident by hundreds if not thousands of bearded dragon enthusiasts and breeders for decades and as long as the criteria for safely using it is met then it is an established, tested and proven safe alternative substrate to use.

The prerequisites to using Children's Play-sand are that your dragon be 10+ inches in length from snout tip to tail tip and that it be a healthy, well-hydrated dragon. The only accepted Play Sand to use would be Washed and Sifted Children's Play-sand. I personally recommend that before using it that it be baked in a 225 degree Fahrenheit oven for at least 30 minutes and allowed to cool to room temperature to ensure that any molds, fungi or bacteria that may be in it are killed off.

As far as it posing a greater risk of respiratory distress to your dragon I believe that to also be an unfounded claim as well. Bearded dragon's come from one of the harshest, most dusty and dry climates on the planet and their bodies are built to handle that climate. While Children's Play-sand may be a bit dusty at times the dust is minimal and I believe that the risk of them developing a respiratory infection because of that is no more than from the ordinary household dust in most homes.

As far as it being a harbinger or breeding ground for germs and bacteria the fact is that as long as proper husbandry practices are maintained then it poses no more risk than any other substrate choice. You mentioned in another thread that when using tiles for substrate that feces can just be wiped up and cleaned with paper towels and water. While it is true that it can be wiped up it can not be cleaned properly with just water and by simply wiping feces up with water you are in fact leaving a whole host of the germs and bacteria that you are so concerned with. Perhaps you should revisit and modify your own husbandry practice before suggesting to others how they should clean their dragon's house.

While I will agree with you on the other substrate choices you listed as good alternatives, I whole-heartedly disagree with your presumption that using Children's Play-sand is a bad choice for a dragon keeper to choose.

I hope that you will continue to participate in the forums but please refrain from posting absolutely wrong info and please do your research before hand. Bad info is bad info and of no viable use to anyone.

I will also remind you that you were challenged on this same issue a few months back and at that time asked to produce two legitimate articles which would fully back your claims and have yet to produce even one. The reason why is that you are wrong in your claims but the challenge is still open.

Enjoy!!

Strained, Children's Washed Play Sand is a very safe substrate, the only particle substrate that I would recommend, have been using it for over 11 years now, as many, many long time breeders & keepers have since the start of the hobby, for all my BDs over 10" in length, nose to tip of tail, with absolutely no issues whatsoever. In all my years in hobby, I have yet to see one proven\documented instance of impaction caused by strained Play Sand. Now if someone use Gravel or Play Sand that has not been strained, that contains larger pebbles in it, that is a different story, that is not the Sand's fault, that is pure & simple - Poor Husbandry.

Play Sand often erringly gets confused & balled into the same category as many of the unsafe commercial substrates available such as, but not limited to, Calci-Sand, Crushed\Ground Walnut shell, Dyed Sands, Cat Litter, Bark Chips, etc, etc, the list goes on.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying that Play Sand must be used, all I am saying is that it is a perfectly safe alternative & that the Hype about it is nothing more than Myth & old wives tales.

Substrate: There are several options for substrates including paper towel, newspaper, butchers paper, slate tile, non-adhesive shelf liner, textured ceramic tile, repti-carpet or children’s play sand, just to name a few. Beware of commercial substrates that state they are “dragon safe” as many are not. Avoid wood chips, crushed walnut shell, coconut fibre, cat litter, pet beddings, rabbit pellets, Calci-Sand or any similar substrates as they do pose a higher risk of potential harm. Despite the negative “hype” children’s play sand is one of the best options if particle substrate is to be used, when properly maintained, for BDs greater than 10" in length. A young BD, less than 10" in length, nose to tip of tail, should not be on a particle substrate of any kind. Calcium Sand is highly over priced, serves no additional benefit and can be dangerous, as it is a possible high impaction risk if ingested, due to clumping, therefore is not recommended.

Read More: http://www.beardeddragonforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3

 

[Germ]

Crushed walnut shell is dangerous and should only be used to clean up oil spills. This substrate is NOT digestable and if too much of it is eaten it will cause impaction. I have seen this occur first hand with reptiles ranging from lizards to tortoise. Stay away from this product please.

Author: Podunk

 

[dhall79]

Awesome write up. Sand or tile it is. Probably tile as we feed in that enclosure.

 

[Jmc1313]

What do you think about that cork substrate ....? Is that any good ? Harmful in any way ? What would you use for new hatchlings ? 6 inches or so.

 

[Luvthemanimal]

What do you think about that cork substrate ....? Is that any good ? Harmful in any way ? What would you use for new hatchlings ? 6 inches or so.

Paper towel
Newspaper
Reptile carpet

Are really the SAFEST things to use at that size.

And for other substrates YOU DONT want ANYTHING that can NOT be passed safely. Like

Sand
Walnut shells
Wood etc..........

 

[dhall79]

Found a good deal on more reptile carpet on drsfostersmith.com, and bought a bunch. So we will be on carpet for quite a while.

 

[Dan B]

I'm new here and am excited about learning things here. I have a juvenile beardie, have had him on Walnut, as well as know a lot of people that use Walnut without any issues. I'm sure there are some, but from my experience, there isn't a problem with it.

EDIT: I should say that I make sure he doesn't eat a lot of his food from there. I have separate places in his enclosure for feeding him.

 

[misskatie]

It's just not worth it...it's not worth risking your bearded dragons life. And besides tile and carpet are waaayyyy cheaper and don't mold and what not. I would never use any kind of loose substrate. Including the calcium sand that only encourages them to eat it.

 

[RaidenMarshall]

Everyone pretty much said everything that needs to be said about what a bad idea it is to have loose substrate. Let me just add that tile, carpet, newspaper are all extremely cheaper.

 

[jarich]

I would disagree with the use of 'loose substrates' as a single category first of all, and that they are all necessarily bad, second of all. As that website link with all the pictures (how did one person take so many blurry images ) showed, there is a huge problem with stating that impaction causes death. Impaction is a symptom more than a cause. Its like saying someone died from a bloody nose, when they had Ebola. It doesnt help understand the underlying issue or why the impaction occurred. Far too many non clinicians and clinicians alike get to the point of seeing an impaction and immediately assume that is the cause of death. However, animals can and do pass particulate substrate regularly. In the wild, it is ingested so much that it becomes a part of nutrition, digestion, every day life, etc. Many animals actually seek out certain kinds of dirt, grit, clay and other substrates specifically, as many of you have seen with your dogs, cats, chickens, etc. In fact, in animals with nutritional mineral deficiencies, they often consume dirt to counteract this. So if an animal has an impaction of small, fine particulate matter, the question is not about the particulate substrate, but rather why wasnt it able to pass this particulate matter like normal?

The colon has a typical and healthy response to non digestible matter; pass it through. In cases where there are large or potentially problematic pieces, a slippery mucus is produced which surrounds the problem article, so that it can be more easily passed out of the body. But small particles are not normally processed in that way, nor do they need to be. Have you ever tried to hold a handful of sand in water? Not particularly simple, because when liquid is present, these small particles are passed along easily with the liquid. So why would such things as sand, walnut shell, etc be problematic? Well, I just gave it away. Moisture and motility are to blame. Much like a drying stream, as soon as the moisture and movement stop, all those little particles stop moving and really start to build up. That picture with the walnut shell blockage obviously didnt happen in one feeding. That the lizard was either poorly heated, poorly hydrated, or both, and for quite some time. Take away the body's natural ability to digest at normal speeds, or to remain properly hydrated, and all of a sudden things that would be simple, normal processes become life threatening problems.

Healthy lizards could be fed on any substrate without problems. If they are hydrated and well heated enough, anything swallowed would be safely passed. Much like when my kid ate a penny, and proceeded to flush it down the toilet a day later. All bodies in nature are adapted to dirt. However, with particular substrates you have to pay closer attention to your other parameters. This is NOT a bad thing. If your dragon is kept with a good heat gradient, such that it can thermoregulate properly for digestion and motility, that is the first step. If it is kept properly hydrated as well, then you have no fear of small particulate substrate. Some substrates can be more desiccating than others, such as calcium sand or walnut shell, and so would be harder to keep your dragon properly hydrated on. However, it is not impossible or even overly difficult if you monitor this. Some substrates are very rough, like wood chips, and so would be more difficult to pass if swallowed, but again not normally problematic in a healthy lizard.

So it would be my recommendation that rather than vilifying the substrate, we focus on the underlying root cause of these impactions, since these cause problems irrespective of substrates used. If you use tile or carpet and have a dehydrated dragon, youre going to find you have problems with many other things too. If you dont provide the proper heat gradient, youre still going to see issues, no matter your substrate. If you dont give your dragon enough room to run, your substrate may not be the only thing that gives your dragon trouble. Looking at these in more detail will solve not only the substrate issues, but many others along the way.

 

[misskatie]

My vet even was saying that the calcium sand is one of the worst because it encourages them to eat it since it has calcium in it she has seen so many dragons die due to improper substrate. It's really unfortunate these big box pet stores can't get their act together and start informing individuals of the correct information.