Gagging Beardie?

[shehzain]

Hi everyone. I brought home a 3 month old male Sandfire/ German Giant bearded dragon today who I've named Altair. He ate two baby dubia roaches when we put him in the cage, in addition to eating a larger one that the breeders at the reptile show fed him.

However, I'm very concerned because he has made what seems to be a gagging motion about three times now, puffing out his chin and sticking out his tongue or opening his mouth just briefly. He hasn't actually thrown up though. I'm worried that maybe we overfed him. He also hasn't pooped since he's been home, and he's been home over 9 hours now.

I have him in a 20 gallon tank, repti-sun UVA/ UVB overhead light that spans the length of the cage, an overhead heater, a water bowl, artificial plants, a log, and the reptile carpet that came with the set. The heat bulb is 50 watt, not sure about the Repti-Sun one off hand. The temp in the cage is 85 even, and he's usually in the basking spot, on top of his log. In fact, he's stayed on top of his log like this nearly the whole time I've had him! He only ever explored when I first put him in the enclosure. I've handled Altair twice.

What should I do if he doesn't poop soon? At what point is not going for a 3 month beardie too long and a trip to the vet is in order? I have a very experienced herp vet in my area so that's covered. And is this gagging motion really a sign of overeating or is it some kind of threat display? He's quite calm when I handle him though, but walks quite a bit and "licks" my arm and hand when exploring.

A couple of other notes: He doesn't drink out of the water bowl, but I've misted him once today and I've also misted water onto some veggies in his food dish which he hasn't touched....

 

[Aleena]

Welcome to BDF!
BD's don't seem to poop right away after they've eaten, don't worry! You can give him a bath and he should drink while in it. Most BD's won't really drink out of the water dish in their tank but sometimes they'll get up in it and sit. My beardies will drink out of them but they're the oddballs. Can you post a pic of your enclosure? And can you get a temp directly under the basking spot? Let me give you a few helpful links! BD's can puff out their beard as a show of dominance, in response to a threat, or for mating purposes. Also it can take them a week to acclimate to their new enclosure so it can be a stress issue as well. They will open their mouths or "gape" under a basking light if it's optimal or too hot temperatures, it is how they regulate heat if they're being lazy and don't want to move. Is their any fluid coming out when he "gags"? Any sounds? They will puff out their beards when they are shedding that area as well, and they do a lot of weird things at that time.
Basic BD Care Sheet - A Place To Start
Housing Beardies Together aka Is Bearded Co-habitation a good plan?
Bearded Dragon Diet Nutritional Information

 

[Jp]

Hello &Welcome

Nothing to be concerned with, sounds like normal behavior & you'll be used to it soon. Do you have a way to get the temp at the center of the basking spot? Should be between 95-105, 85 should be the temp of the (cool side) of the enclosure. This insures that your dragon can regulate its body temperature by simply moving to the other side & away from the heat source. Other than that, sounds like your dragon is in a good enclosure & a loving home.

 

[shehzain]

Sorry, I don't have a temperature gun so I can't say the exact temp of the basking spot. But the light is situated more or less to one side and he can go underneath his log or the fake leaves if he wants to be cool. This morning he was sleeping on the fake leaves with his chin against the glass, but was nice and alert when I gave him two small dubia roaches. Still won't touch the veggies, and still no poop.

Here is a picture of the enclosure:

My most important question is, when should they normally poop after eating? Especially at this age? Thanks!

 

[Germ]

Poop time will vary, Youngsters will generally go daily. But, if it's basking temps are not right it will not be able to digest it's food properly, so it will definitely affect it's bowel movements. Temperature at the Basking spot, must be in the vicinity of 110F for a juvenile to be able to digest it's food properly (the above mentioned temps are what an adult's should be), with a heat gradient to the cool side to 80-85F. It is imperative that you acquire a thermometer that will enable you to check this accurately, a digital thermometer with a probe is recommended. A temp gun would not be very accurate in your setup, because you would have to raise the screen in order to check, raising the bulb, changing the temp, making it impossible to get an accurate reading. By the looks of the set up in the pic, it does not appear that the temps would be any where near hot enough at the Basking Spot with a 50W colored bulb. They will spend the majority of their time basking in order to be able to digest their food.

The analog thermometer that is in the pic, are notorious for being inaccurate & difficult to get the temps taken in the right places, which are the basking spot & the cool side. Mounted on the Glass will give you more the temp of the glass, which is affected as much my the ambient room temp as the enclosure environment, and where it is mounted now gives you nothing where needed, rendering it basically useless.

BDs thrive on bright white light, so a white or clear basking bulb is recommended. It is not uncommon for a BD not to eat greens for the first while. Some won't touch them for months, but they should always be made available to them so they are there when they choose to check them out. If it is not eating Greens, care must be taken with frequent misting, once or twice a day along with a weekly warm soak, which more times than not, will induce a bowel movement. Misting & warm soaks will help ensure Hydration & help immensely with shedding.

I also suggest raising the Basking Spot so it can be a little closer to the UVB bulb in order for it to be effective.

Good Luck

 

[Aleena]

I agree with what Germ said, and my only addition would be to ask you if that is a 10gal enclosure? A 20 long is recommended as a minimum size for baby-juvenile beardies. A 10 gal simply will not give the appropriate heat gradient that they require.

 

[Germ]

Good question, at the angle the pic is taken I thought 20 gal. But looking closer it does look to be a ten. Nice catch Aleena .

 

[Germ]

Shehzain - Seriously urge you to acquire a larger enclosure asap. On this Forum alone, there has been 2 BDs die in one week as a direct result of being housed in a 10 gal kit similar to that (Search for the words 'Died' or 'Dead'). At least you are providing UVB where the others weren't. But the heat issues mentioned are a serious problem & virtually impossible to achieve in that size enclosure. Pet Store recommendations .

Looks like there may be a plastic cover, between the UVB bulb & the screen. If there is, this has to be removed, as UVB will not pass through a solid filter such as glass or plastic.

 

[Aleena]

Shehzain - Seriously urge you to acquire a larger enclosure asap. On this Forum alone, there has been 2 BDs die in one week as a direct result of being housed in a 10 gal kit similar to that (Search for the words 'Died' or 'Dead'). At least you are providing UVB where the others weren't. But the heat issues mentioned are a serious problem & virtually impossible to achieve in that size enclosure. Pet Store recommendations .

Looks like there may be a plastic cover, between the UVB bulb & the screen. If there is, this has to be removed, as UVB will not pass through a solid filter such as glass or plastic.

Yeah, that looks just like the Zilla UVB light I have that I had to remove the plastic cover off of.

 

[shehzain]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Yes, the plastic was still on the lid: I didn't know that it had to be taken off, actually. Hopefully he'll get more UVB now. I took that off tonight.

The other good news is that he pooped, but it was kind of greenish and smelled bad. I'm worried that the temperature is the issue now. Sadly I can't get a stronger light for a while, or even a different basking spot (I think rock would be better, would absorb more heat). He's still gagging once in a while. No sound, no mucous, but he puffs up his beard, kind of backs up, and opens his mouth. I think the most I can do now is raise the basking platform with some old books: but I don't want to cook him, either, so I'm not going to raise it up terribly high. I know it's a crappy set up right now but I'll have to make do until we find something better.

I will most certainly buy a larger cage and better heat lamps a.s.a.p. However, Germ, I don't think he's in immediate danger of dying. I'm very concerned, yes, and as a result your post did really scare me. But he's eating fine, he did poop tonight, I gave him a warm water bath and he drank some water. He's eating the veggies now, mostly the squash. I dust the roaches with vitamin powder so he gets that too. He sleeps alright as well. The gagging issue is very concerning, yes, so that's why I'm making the corrections I can and he's going to a qualified herp vet on Wednesday.

I'm also curious as to the other reasons behind the beardies who died. Did they not have any UVB at all? Were they lethargic and listless? Did they have parasites? I really doubt that the 10 gallon aquarium was the ONLY reason they died!

Please don't think I'm ignorant or uneducated. I'm new to beardies, yes. Reptiles? No. I have a 13 year old Rosy Boa who's in perfect health, and has been for years. I know they're quite different, but I really don't think you should be saying things like "oh, the poor guy didn't have much of a chance" to owners who have just lost a pet! That is highly insensitive and disrespectful. They don't need to be made to feel worse.

 

[Germ]

Well my friend you have been cautioned, do with it as you will. It doesn't matter how many reptiles that you have had before, different species require different care & this is not a Rosy Boa. Why would you think I think that you are uneducated? But I sure think now, that you are quite ignorant of BD care, haven't done your homework & did not prep for a proper home & now won't listen to good solid advice. A BD will not thrive in a 10 Gal enclosure, it is not possible to provide the proper heat gradient & you have no idea what your temps are, the other BDs did start out to be healthy too. Don't wait until it's too late to give your head a shake, because it's your little one that will suffer not you. Young BDs can go downhill very quickly, when at least the very Basics are not met. At the very least, remove the thermometer from the back wall, set it on the basking spot for an hour or so after the lights have been on for a couple of hours, so you have an idea of the temp.

 

[shehzain]

I AM listening to your advice, I'm getting a new enclosure a.s.a.p. Please re-read my last two sentences as to why I had a problem with what you were saying to me and the others. I really do appreciate it, and I am trying my best with what I have now. I'm going to change the conditions as soon as I possibly can, and for now I'm trying to get him more heat so he doesn't die. I love him very much and I'd hate to see anything happen to him!

I'm sorry that I came off as overly harsh. But I was upset with what you said and was reacting accordingly. I know it's not a rosy boa and yes, I am ignorant of bearded dragon care, which is why I'm here in the first place.

P.S. I did move the thermometer to the basking site, and it's 90 degrees. I'm also going to be reading my book in addition to your advice so I get a good solid source of information. Right now I'm just very stressed and confused because of all the conflicting information out there regarding BD care. 95-100 degrees versus 110 for basking spot, light vs no heat light on at night. (Right now I'm keeping the heat light on at night because he does sleep, but I want him to digest, and I think my room gets a little colder than 60 degrees at night.)

 

[Germ]

When does it do the gagging thing, is it just opening it's mouth as yawn type action, does it's head kinda jerk as ours would if we had something caught in our throat? Does it puff out it's beard at the same time. Does it happen when you approach it?

 

[shehzain]

His head kind of jerks a little, and his upper body heaves like he's going to throw up, but he never does. His throat will puff out along with the heaving. He'll open his mouth for like a second when he does this, but it doesn't seem like a yawn to me...but I don't know what beardie yawns look like. Yes, he does sometimes do it when I approach the cage. But the strange heaving motions...are those part of defensive behavior? it doesn't seem like it.

Again, thank you so much for your advice. I really, really hope that me elevating the log a little helped...it's about an inch higher now. He seems very active, running back and forth from one side of the cage to the next, but he'll also sit in the basking spot for hours. I wish I could explain all this better...

I feel so bad now, because you're right, I was unprepared to get a BD! I thought I knew the basics, but apparently not! I'd been wanting a beardie for a long time, and when the reptile show finally came around, my family decided we should get one. I'm mostly responsible for it though, and I just want the poor little guy to be okay!

 

[Germ]

Can you post a close up of your BD. It really sounds, as others have said, like it is simply prepping for a shed & loosening the old &\or relieving some irritation. Other times, possibly an attempt to dominate or intimidate a perceived threat that may be as simple as it's reflection in the glass, or you..

This morning he was sleeping on the fake leaves with his chin against the glass, but was nice and alert when I gave him two small dubia roaches.

This is sounding like it moved from the spot that it was the night before when it went to sleep. Indicating that it is not sleeping well. A BD will almost always be found in the morning prior to lights on, in the same spot & generally, in the exact same position that it was in the night before, if it is sleeping properly.

 

[Aleena]

I'm so sorry! I know what you're going through. I thought I was prepared to take care of BD's when I started out as well. I listened carefully to the advice of the pet store that I got them from and did everything they said... then we started making trips to the vet and I felt so much less informed. That's what we're here for though, is to clear up misinformation. There are some BD care points that are disputed, but most follow a general guideline that if followed will lead to a happy, healthy pet. I have a word of caution about the fake plants. If your BD starts nipping at them, I would remove them immediately. There is some debate as to whether it's a good idea to have them in the viv at all, but if there are small enough parts to fit in the mouth as it gets bigger, it could choke on them. Bearded Dragons will try to nip at almost anything that's green as they get older, but some say that if they're raised with them in their vivs from a baby then they'll be fine.

 

[shehzain]

I actually removed the hanging plant that was in the viv in the photo you see above, and replaced it with a taller, "tree" like one that has leaves that are made of some kind of cloth. Too tall for him to reach, and certainly can't be bitten off. I was a little worried he would try to eat it, too! And also the roaches would hide under there where it was harder for him to find.

Good news, the heaving motion along with the gagging stopped! His temp is also up to a tick below 100 degrees F in his basking spot! (The thermometer is a few inches below the basking spot, btw.) He's also not as dark as he used to be, so I'm taking this as a very good sign. He does, however, still gape occasionally, but it's more like a yawn, and he'll sometimes lick his lips also. So this is something they do before they shed? He has a little loose skin on his snout, and I saw him do that eye bugging thing that scares some people. (His eyes were closed, they bulged out, then went back to normal.)

Thank you so much for your advice, everyone. I feel like he's doing better even though his setup still isn't ideal.

@Germ: He was basking on the log prior, then when I woke up a few hours later in the middle of the night, I saw him on the plant with his chin against the glass, and then he was back on his basking spot in the morning on that night. Is that what you mean by them moving? I'm not sure if he slept last night or not, because he was alert before I fell asleep, and then when I woke up, and he was in the same spot both times...

I'm really worried that my red heat bulb is what's causing the problem, but I won't be able to get a dark heat light (those purple Zilla ones they sell) until the weekend or maybe Friday. Is it your experience that red heat bulbs are bad? How can I help him sleep during the night till we change the light? I turn off and cover all other light sources in my room to hopefully help him sleep.

 

[Germ]

I suggest checking your ambient room temps at night, if they are not below 65F then leave it off. In my experience, any night light, no matter what color will disturb most BDs sleep, of course there are the odd exceptions. If your room temps do not actually drop below 65F, night heat is not needed or wanted, a BD should be allowed to cool off at night, slows the metabolism for a good nights sleep. Very few homes these days, as most people would find it uncomfortable, will drop below that. I live where it gets to be -50F at times outside at night, my home never cools to that. We have a really neat invention here, that they call a 'Furnace' . BDs need a definite consistent Day/Night schedule, lights On for 12-14 hrs a day, Off for the rest, at the same time of the day, everyday, in order to establish a proper sleep pattern. An electronic timer is recommended & is an invaluable option.

If the temps do drop below 65F & night is absolutely required a CHE (Ceramic Heat Emitter) is recommended. Fits in a regular light socket & provides heat with no light emitted.

Most BDs will not move at all during the night if they are sleeping properly. As previously mentioned, most will be found in the morning where they went to sleep the night before. If this is not the case the majority of the time, it is an indication of a sleep disturbance, caused, but not limited to, for example by lighting or feeders left in the enclosure crawling & nibbling on it.

Good Luck

 

[shehzain]

Thanks! I saw Altair sleeping under his log but I decided to take your advice and turn off the red heat light. This will help me sleep better too, lol. (The tank is next to my bed.) I'll be monitoring the temp to make sure it doesn't drop below 65 F.