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Avg lifespan Vs Wild lifespan

zebraflavencs

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I haven't been around as long as some, but I have seen you flamed, Francis.
I've seen Tim flamed.
I'm quite sure if some people knew some of my "practices" or experiments, I too would be flamed. Doesn't stop me though does it? Shouldn't stop you folks either.

It's all about who is what, on forums. I have to agree, that for new folks, giving them an updated, practical care sheet is good. But what happens when you have people going outside that box ? That's what the problem is, on most forums.. My way or the Highway...
No growth there...
Okay, off my soap box. Pardon the hi jacking Francis and everyone else.
 

ladyknite

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one of the things i have been pondering lately is whether the "safe" caresheet love people have been preaching has actually been having an adverse effect that is unseen. I just have a feeling that something might be there but I can't put my finger on it and I don't think I can see all the factors involved. I mean i am trying to comprehend remote information form observing threads and can only assume that information given is absolute.

In OZ, you practice keeping as closely as you can to what is in the wild. Am I right?

Here we have only interpretation to base that on.

In the wild, temperatures, food, predators and all things surrounding the animal including parasites come and go naturally, they change. In captivity here they are set with a precedence to remain solid. Temps are a solid ?, substrate is exactly ?, hydration is typically forced, not open for need or preference. And although in captivity, some of those things are hard to change, I do believe they play a key factor.
Can you verify that dragons bask at 115F every single day for 12-14 hours? Honestly, I'd hate my owner.
But more to the question at hand.........what is right and what is wrong.

Are we conditioning them for disposal before they get to their golden years?

I guess maybe i travel a little outside that box with the way i think. Go figure.
 

ladyknite

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I would just like to thank the people on this forum and the mods as I am most active on here. This is the only place I can have open the discussions and questions that I do without being flamed out of the place (something I'm sure Gina would know Wink). This is the most open minded forum I have ever been on and it is an absolute pleasure bouncing ideas off you guys.

well said sweets. And i totally agree. There are quite a few of us who know and understand what it's like to be outside the norm. (looks at Candice and Tim directly)........hehehhe...........It's nice to have someplace where we can talk and discuss and offer this information to other people. When they become comfortable in their keeping they may choose to venture out beyond that "caresheet" as well. they need to be able to discuss that openly. It's how we all learn..........without the many repeated mistakes, but without encroaching on each persons right to practice what they see as plausible and possible.
Your posts are quite eye opening Francis. Your scope of observation is much different than mine....yet relates to something i am curious about as well. I spent years hiding what i know, what i practice, and what i find because of the flaming you describe. With age comes wisdom. Eventually you just get tired of being so complacent that you go along with everything because it's of the majority. That information came from somewhere.
 

beardielover17

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I have always wondered with the temperature debate Gina. Somehow I find it incredibly hard to believe they bask at temps like 115 to 130. When someone told me their basking temp was 130 for a beardie I almost died. Their argument was that with it being that hot they don't spend as much time under it and get their body going faster.

To me if I were the dragon, sure I'd go under the light for a brief moment but then I'd be like, "whoaaaa too hot! I'm gettin outta here!" and not go near it for the rest of the day. A lizard will continue to go under the light every day because they don't know better and don't realize that the temperatures won't fluctuate as they would in the wild.

Sorry did I go off topic?
 

beardielover17

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ladyknite said:
well said sweets. And i totally agree. There are quite a few of us who know and understand what it's like to be outside the norm. (looks at Candice and Tim directly)........hehehhe...........It's nice to have someplace where we can talk and discuss and offer this information to other people. When they become comfortable in their keeping they may choose to venture out beyond that "caresheet" as well. they need to be able to discuss that openly. It's how we all learn..........without the many repeated mistakes, but without encroaching on each persons right to practice what they see as plausible and possible.
Your posts are quite eye opening Francis. Your scope of observation is much different than mine....yet relates to something i am curious about as well. I spent years hiding what i know, what i practice, and what i find because of the flaming you describe. With age comes wisdom. Eventually you just get tired of being so complacent that you go along with everything because it's of the majority. That information came from somewhere.
In the beginning I was always in favor of deciding on my dragon's husbandry based on the observations I made but after being open about it I got flamed and they actually convinced me that what I was doing was wrong. After enough battles with these people I told them to go shove it where the sun don't shine and have going about my way since.
 

ladyknite

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I think this is where he intended the conversation to go or at least encompass.

Test that theory Candice. Use a 40 breeder tank. Get the temps to 130 and check your cool side. You remember that cool side.......that would be where they go to retreat from the heat. to lower their metabolic rate so they are not making poop without properly absorbing the vitamins and all in the food they eat. Where their body is to cool off and perform normal activity functions. Then ask yourself Exactly how many people use something larger than a 4 x 2 x 2 or 36 x 18 x 18. A 6 foot enclosure.........try heating that up to 130F if it's not enclosed. Yet, there are days where i will allow my larger enclosures to peak close to that for an hour (at one basking site only). this doesn't affect my cool side much. Then, i shut down all but the fluorescent bulbs.

You know me. I offer people the safe way. I see you around enough........venturing......i know where you're going with it and find it interesting to talk to those people. Unfortunately, there's places to talk about that....and places you don't. When i was much younger, experimenting with my ideas, identifying my problems and talking them out with someone for another opinion was unheard of. I'm in favor of that support system. But believe that each person must feel comfortable with the basic care before they reach outside that box.
 

beardielover17

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I know it is successful to achieve temperatures that high will still keeping a good cool area on the other half of the cage. I've experimented. My dragons HATED that high of a temp so I slowly decreased it in increments of 5 degrees for a couple months and my dragons prefer to bask and seem more active at temps around 105 to 108. My fear with temps that high constantly were the risk of the dragon becoming dehydrated faster. In my enclosure atleast, the 130 degree temps sucked the humidity out and I know beardies need some humidity. Granted this may just be my dragons but 130 seems a bit too high to keep as a constant temp
 

ladyknite

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My fear with temps that high constantly were the risk of the dragon becoming dehydrated faster. In my enclosure atleast, the 130 degree temps sucked the humidity out and I know beardies need some humidity.

ain't just you darlin.
now try that 130 degree basking temp in a melamine enclosure. My experiment exhausted over 200F
 

Red Ink AUS

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I have always said (and believe) that proper temps are they key to reptile husbandry. I put correct temps ahead of UV, nutrition or anything else. They are ecotherms their whole methabolism depends on ambient temperatures.

I have recently read a very interesting article in regards to Nutritional Methabolic Bone Deasese. It supports what i have always suspected. The lower (inaccurate) temps will actually break down the protein pre vitamin D in to cholesterol to be stored guess where? The liver. No amount of UVB or supplements (unless supplied with "active" vitamin D) will fix this without proper temps. Remember our discussion ages ago about fatty liver desease where me and Tim both commented on temps and it's relation to nutrition.

As for my temp gradient (and this is why I have taller enclosures) it is on multi-levels. Even on a 4x2x3 enclosure. Gradient is not only horizontal but also vertical. The highest point of my basking spot sits constantly at 120F move 5 inches accross from the light spread or down and it goes to 110F. Middle of the enclosure sits at 90-95f, cool side depending on height 70-80f. They do not need to bask 12hours a day in fact they don't (I personally think it is un-natural). I cycle my lights on a timer to mimic natural basking behaviour 4 hours on in the morning, 4 hours off at mid-day, four hours on in the afternoon. Exactly as how they would behave in the wild guess what animals are out in the blazing mid-day aussie sun? Monitors, BD's worst nightmare, remember aussie monitors optimum operating temps are at 150f. Too hot for a BD and too dangerous for a BD to be out at so they follow that photo-period.

People have seen my enclosure before but here it is again.

enclosure1.jpg


Long basking logs so they can adjust across where they feel comfortable as well as being bowed, tiles at the bottom to absorb heat. Cool side has sand as substrate which keeps ground level cool as well as platform above the sand to lay on (halfway at the height of the enclosure. Ambient air temps controlled by CHE and thermostat (something else that seems to be not practised over there but standard practise over here).
 

Red Ink AUS

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ladyknite said:
In OZ, you practice keeping as closely as you can to what is in the wild. Am I right?

Most of us but not all, some offer the caresheet love due to the fact that information available on the internet is dominated by US based practices as well as forums.

ladyknite said:
Here we have only interpretation to base that on.

In the wild, temperatures, food, predators and all things surrounding the animal including parasites come and go naturally, they change. In captivity here they are set with a precedence to remain solid. Temps are a solid ?, substrate is exactly ?, hydration is typically forced, not open for need or preference. And although in captivity, some of those things are hard to change, I do believe they play a key factor.
Can you verify that dragons bask at 115F every single day for 12-14 hours? Honestly, I'd hate my owner.
But more to the question at hand.........what is right and what is wrong.

Are we conditioning them for disposal before they get to their golden years?

I guess maybe i travel a little outside that box with the way i think. Go figure.

I believe so, an artificial environment produces a specimen that will adapt to it naturally, therefore this will limit it's ability to survive in an environment that it is not adapted to. Now think about what generational "caresheet love" is doing to adaptation.

Dragons do not bask 10-12 hours a day, they don't even expose themselves to that much light/UVB/heat saturation naturally. No diurnal reptile does.

I believe that what we are doing (inadvertently) is creating a boy in the bubble situation with anything that comes into the bubble at a later stage when the metabolism is slower to be detrimental as they never developed the capability to deal with it while the specimen was in it's prime and can stave off any outside "harmful" factors.

Just like chicken pox and mumps in humans better to get them as a child as in later life contamination of these viruses have a greater effect than in childhood.

Now I am not saying expose the dragons to all harmful things but being over protective is also detrimental in my opinion, it's a double edge sword. Hence my niggling doubt of the "caresheet love".
 

Red Ink AUS

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staylor said:
Thank you for teaching us so much. I like the Francis study groups.

No worries Sandra glad your enjoying it, but it this is the only place where this is considered a "study group" lol, it is absolute heresy and the work of the devil everywhere else ;).
 

zebraflavencs

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Interesting. So when I built my enclosures, I was unwittingly doing the same as you, Francis, though I don't cycle my lights as you do...

I have two levels, 4 enclosures total, 3 that are modified to be taller than the Crossfire I based them on. One is made to the specs of the Cross fire.

I use MVBs in the three modified, a linear in the to spec enclosure.

The modified enclosures, have levels beyond just two. I use bricks in two with tile in between to make "caves". The third modified, I use a sealed, sand encrusted table top waterfall as the "steps" up to the second level.
 

ladyknite

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Francis
My enclosures have good gradients, heat naturally travels up was a common rule of thumb, and the highest point of some of the basking spots reach 120-125F. Yet my dragons choose where they want to be on what temperature they require at the time I assume. Although my lighting is on for 12 hours per day, the thermostat kicks the temp down a lower level leaving only the white light for the time frame of noon to 3 pm. Which is normally the hottest part of our day here in NC.


Quote from: ladyknite on May 12, 2010, 10:03:10 AM
In OZ, you practice keeping as closely as you can to what is in the wild. Am I right?
Most of us but not all, some offer the caresheet love due to the fact that information available on the internet is dominated by US based practices as well as forums.
That’s really too bad. Although I believe all research is valid, I believe that each should follow their own scope. Its sad to think that arrogance lays the way in the information highway.

Are we conditioning them for disposal before they get to their golden years?

I believe so, an artificial environment produces a specimen that will adapt to it naturally, therefore this will limit it's ability to survive in an environment that it is not adapted to. Now think about what generational "caresheet love" is doing to adaptation.

Dragons do not bask 10-12 hours a day, they don't even expose themselves to that much light/UVB/heat saturation naturally. No diurnal reptile does.


I believe that what we are doing (inadvertently) is creating a boy in the bubble situation with anything that comes into the bubble at a later stage when the metabolism is slower to be detrimental as they never developed the capability to deal with it while the specimen was in it's prime and can stave off any outside "harmful" factors.

I can ironically relate to the boy in the bubble in real life. But I’m confused. Tests are revealing that speeding up the metabolism (essentially digestion) is creating situations where the body is not absorbing nutrients and the valuable attributes of proteins or their derivatives. Some of this is applying to Metabolic Bone Disease Studies, others lead to studies on Vitamins B (which is appearing more and more), K and a few others. Now personally, I believe this is a problem that has settled its self in the US (elsewhere also, but not as common) but if I’m misunderstanding…………….please explain.

Just like chicken pox and mumps in humans better to get them as a child as in later life contamination of these viruses have a greater effect than in childhood.
essentially antibodies right?

Now I am not saying expose the dragons to all harmful things but being over protective is also detrimental in my opinion, it's a double edge sword. Hence my niggling doubt of the "caresheet love".
 

staylor

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Red Ink AUS said:
staylor said:
Thank you for teaching us so much. I like the Francis study groups.

No worries Sandra glad your enjoying it, but it this is the only place where this is considered a "study group" lol, it is absolute heresy and the work of the devil everywhere else ;).

A lot of people do not like to learn, they like to think they know all. This is one of the things I like most about here. Everyone states their opinions, observations and concerns and everyone here is open to what others have to say.
 

ladyknite

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Sandra
We believe it's important to learn, within your own comfort zone. You got the basics.....or we'll give em to ya. But logically, at some point you'll wonder about other things.
We don't understand why thats such a bad thing to do (elsewhere as Francis suggested). How do people think progress is made?
It just so happens that we have some respect for each other. We're each different, but we consider what the other has to offer, especially if it's not something we've done or thought yet.
You're very right. Alot of people don't like to learn. They just don't post here.

ironically, I've spent years wondering how the people from THE LAND OF DRAGONS could possibly not know a dang thing about their environment or their native species like they were treated. sometimes, if people were subject to more common sense....that wouldn't be a problem
 

staylor

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Francis signature says it all, "Ignorance is BLISS and I seem to keep bumping into a lot of HAPPY people"
 

Red Ink AUS

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ladyknite said:
I can ironically relate to the boy in the bubble in real life. But I’m confused. Tests are revealing that speeding up the metabolism (essentially digestion) is creating situations where the body is not absorbing nutrients and the valuable attributes of proteins or their derivatives. Some of this is applying to Metabolic Bone Disease Studies, others lead to studies on Vitamins B (which is appearing more and more), K and a few others. Now personally, I believe this is a problem that has settled its self in the US (elsewhere also, but not as common) but if I’m misunderstanding…………….please explain.

That is exactly it Gina, the article in Reptiles Australia will explain it better. But in a nutshell the temps are the key factors in reptile husbandry. The one thing as i said previously that seems to have also settled in the practise over there is people not monitoring air temps as they would play a factor as well (it's all about basking temps), too much too worry about as a beginer I know. You would know that the sand would hold less heat through convection than tiles or slate, so once those heat up they retain a lot of heat. This actually would create a micro convection oven. How many people have vents on the roofs of their enclosure (crossfire does not show that). So What's a newbie to do, to dangerous to practise what we do without all the info and knowledge, safer too parctise the caresheet care, but is it? Due to the lack of knowledge and proper research I would have to say it is safer to practice the careshhet care if you are just begining as reptile husbandry does not have an excat bible and knowledge only comes with experience.

ladyknite said:
ironically, I've spent years wondering how the people from THE LAND OF DRAGONS could possibly not know a dang thing about their environment or their native species like they were treated. sometimes, if people were subject to more common sense....that wouldn't be a problem

It's easier being told the "truth" than finding it out for yourself ;). I have had fellow Australians tell me that tiles is more natural for them than what i use (and I use actual outback terra lol). It's complacency is what it is. Plus a lot of people feel conmfortable in following, if that's the way people are doing it then it must be the correct way, they take what is given to them as fact. Like you said common sense.
 

Brad Walker

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Hi!
out in the wild, bearded dragon will somewhere from 5 to 8 years. This is the same age they will reach in captivity if he/she is not getting proper care. However, under proper care bearded dragons can live up to 14+ years. Read more about the average lifespan of bearded dragons.
 
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