Avg lifespan Vs Wild lifespan

[Red Ink AUS]

Hi Guys,

Having one of those days where i want to pose some Qs for you guys about husbandry to see what you guys think.

So firstly I will ask one Q and see where we can go from there from the answers given.

What do you guys think is the avg age for BDs in captivity?

 

[li]

6-10 years in captivity. Of course that is the norm. Many have died before 6 and I am sure there are beardies out there that are older.

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

Im finding averages in the 10 to 12 year range.
I know of several dragons that are at 15 years.

 

[zebraflavencs]

I have heard that the life span in the wild to be in the 5-7 year range.
I've also heard captivity life span can go into the teens, though the average seems to be around 8 years.

 

[ladyknite]

interesting question Francis. I think this has way too many variables to put a real accurate number on. But I'll tell you what i know.

For the last 10 years, I've tracked the life span of 500 dragons all captive born here in the US. Mine are not included in this count, but there are other peoples here (in this forum) who are.
Of those, 17 dragons are still living.
360+(370) died before age 5
80+ did not live to be 7

I will say there are some with long lifespans. You might equate that to earlier genetics or at least stronger ones, and care. But i don't think they're part of the norm. The minority unfortunately.

 

[beardielover17]

I'd have to say 4 to 8 years is the average in captivity. When you really think about it I think there are fewer people like us who really strive to do things right by further researching than there are people who just go by what pet stores say and usually have dragons with shorter lives. Also like Gina mentioned, with increasingly weak bloodlines in the US I can see the number of years dwindle and that is something out of the common keeper's control. 8 to 10 was the average at one point but I don't believe it anymore.

 

[ladyknite]

Candice, one thing i've found......there are specific "lines" (note i did not say bloodline) that has such a weak genetic signature, it's not lasting more than 3-4 years. Another has a diverse signature. It can either be a stronger signature or weaker one. I've tested out a few....to see if there was anything unique.....but can't find anything. it's beyond my realm of knowledge.

Funny how when we plan to purchase our pets, we research our breeders, we research their customers and the recommendations placed......yet we fail to check on the lifespan of prior clutches or what the die off rate was at hatching if it exists.

 

[beardielover17]

Agreed Gina, however, I don't know of many breeders who will give out information like that. Most get very offended when I asked their success of their clutches and die off rates. Although from that I usually assume the worst and don't bother with them then.

 

[ladyknite]

well, this is way OT from Francis's post........but

I don't know of many breeders who will give out information like that.

A concept i don't understand. i grew up around reptiles, snakes and hots and one of the things that breeders prided theirselves on for years was their honesty in their trade. Not that they are that far from "horse trader" mentality, but simply that if they had nothing to hide, they didn't get offended. Things aren't like that anymore. :'(
Personally, I like the people that ask questions. Alot of questions. Anybody who intends on taking one of mine......makes me feel better when they want to know everything from clutch size, to any accidents, how they were fed, ratio of m/f..............anything under the stars. And i answer them. Why.........because providing them with an animal that makes them happy is why we're talking in the first place.

 

[beardielover17]

I agree Gina. When I bred mine I wrote down every detail about them down to what day each baby hatched. My site offered all of the information to the buyers and I always urged them to ask questions. Luckily for me all of my eggs hatched and I had no fatalities so I had no bad news to report on them.

 

[ladyknite]

I have lists of my dragons, where most of them are, their owners. I've kept track of it over the years for specifically that reason.
I use my "study group" of the 500 and base another area of my observation on the dragons that i bred. I keep the same info you did. No fatalities. No nips. One accident. I mashed a toe with a rock and caused a cut. But that was all.

 

[li]

But Gina, unfortunately you are not the "norm" anymore. You were raised with reptiles and have been dealing with them for years. Just from being on forums and different places, I have noticed more and more a disturbing habit. Somebody gets a beardie and within 3 years they are experts. Not only that these "experts" are in the business. It's not like they are even breeding for their own benefit and learning, they are actually "in the business". It is scary.

You can back up every bit of information you have on your beardies and other animals, not many people can say that.

 

[ladyknite]

I may no longer be the norm............and that may be a bad thing.........
but hey I didn't vote this way. If the reptile community doesn't like it..........they can change how they do business. they've just got to be determined.

 

[li]

I agree. As for the life expectancy....I truly believe that what we were just talking about has a lot to do with it. I know for a fact that you can have a bearded dragon that is given everything perfect. From food, to heat, to lights, to just plain being spoiled rotten and it can die very young. Like many I bought Spyro from a pet store BEFORE knowing that that wasn't best thing. Spyro was given the best of everything and he died very young (6). I think that not knowing the lineage or at least the breeder and their practices is the key. It's not so much how we take care of them (of course that has an awful lot to do with it, and we can cause life expectancy to go down due to husbandry), but the background of the dragon.

 

[Red Ink AUS]

Very interesting responses guys .

So now we really have to think that the whole idea of 10+ years in captivity may not be the norm but the exception?

For the last 10 years, I've tracked the life span of 500 dragons all captive born here in the US. Mine are not included in this count, but there are other peoples here (in this forum) who are.
Of those, 17 dragons are still living.
360+(370) died before age 5
80+ did not live to be 7

I will say there are some with long lifespans. You might equate that to earlier genetics or at least stronger ones, and care. But i don't think they're part of the norm. The minority unfortunately.

500 dragons and only 17 are a decade old, hardly the "norm" of 8-10 years in captivity and around 60% dying before 5.

With this are we setting ourselves up with false hopes and expectations from our specimen?

I mean we are talking about "average" lifespan. I asked this because most people you ask will say around the 10 year mark, yet most people you see have dragons pass away well short of that mark.

So realistically their wild cousins are not that much worse off in their natural state than their captive bretheren.

I will now tie in to Gina's other thread about instincts. In the "4x2x2" love we provide, their natural instincts are suppressed as they are given (and predominantly) a "care sheet" environment. So therefore you would think that this would have a "mental" effect on the dragons. Why then do we shun away from a naturalistic setting? Why do people who have a naturalistic setting often get flamed for their views. I can tell you now from my observatuions around the "culture", statistically people that keep naturalistic settings have "older" dragons (well the ones i have come accross anyway).

I am not trying to convince people on keeping a naturalistic setting these are just some points to ponder.
(I asked this in a round about way in a thread called Mental stimuli vs Stress)

So the lifespan thing do you think the average should be adjusted to a lower mark say 6-8 in captivity or is that keeper error, bad genetics or other factors?

 

[beardielover17]

When people ask me the life expectancy of beardies I usually reply "They have the POTENTIAL to live up to 12 to 15 years but that is a rare occurance due to limited gene pool, poor husbandry and other factors but I would average out on 4 to 8 years with 8 being a stretch"

I think the typical average should be lowered. I mean it doesn't mean ALL dragons will live such a short life but it also prevents people from getting false hope that their animal can live a very long time.

 

[ladyknite]

500 dragons and only 17 are a decade old, hardly the "norm" of 8-10 years in captivity and around 60% dying before 5.

With this are we setting ourselves up with false hopes and expectations from our specimen?

I mean we are talking about "average" lifespan. I asked this because most people you ask will say around the 10 year mark, yet most people you see have dragons pass away well short of that mark.

So realistically their wild cousins are not that much worse off in their natural state than their captive bretheren.

Well, yes, i think that pretty much sums it up. I believe it sets up newcomers with false hopes and expectations, but at the same time, i think it's an advantage for some breeders to take advantage of.

Why then do we shun away from a naturalistic setting? Why do people who have a naturalistic setting often get flamed for their views. I can tell you now from my observatuions around the "culture", statistically people that keep naturalistic settings have "older" dragons (well the ones i have come accross anyway).

I am not trying to convince people on keeping a naturalistic setting these are just some points to ponder.
(I asked this in a round about way in a thread called Mental stimuli vs Stress)

People shy away from the naturalistic settings because of what is preached on forums. It's my belief to go about things this way. Give the new owner and the inexperienced a solid safe base. Give them a healthy animal. Give them information on diet, nutrition and supplementation. In a few years....they'll be ready to learn things for theirselves. If they don't get caught up in the money game and think this is quickie cash. if they do....then they usually end up on the cheap end of the care scale, and it's product that suffers in the end.
Why do we get flamed? C'mon Francis......I know when you came about on the internet. RZ (hope you remember that) seemed like a pretty nice place huh? As long as you had the same opinion as everyone else. There was no freedom of choice. It was either lie to protect your practices, or change your belief. I'm not a good liar, and i absolutely suck at being something i'm not supposed to be, or that my heart just isn't in. How about you? Personally, I have a brain. I have experience. I have curiousity and intrigue. I use all those things to answer my own questions. I learn hands on. Not that it's all daisies and butterflies....but you take the good with the bad. I don't ask anyone to support what i do and usually don't involve anyone in those observations or experiments for just this reason. Yet when i'm done, they enjoy the information it provides. I wonder sometimes HOW exactly people think we come to those conclusions.

So the lifespan thing do you think the average should be adjusted to a lower mark say 6-8 in captivity or is that keeper error, bad genetics or other factors?

with what's facing this nation. I'll stick with 5-8

 

[Red Ink AUS]

I hear what your saying Gina , one of the things i have been pondering lately is whether the "safe" caresheet love people have been preaching has actually been having an adverse effect that is unseen. I just have a feeling that something might be there but I can't put my finger on it and I don't think I can see all the factors involved. I mean i am trying to comprehend remote information form observing threads and can only assume that information given is absolute. It has been bugging me for a while now as like i said the ones that die younger (statistically) are the ones in "caresheet" environments. For all intent and purpose and on paper it is the safest environment the specimen can be in. There are poor genetic factors as we all know but if that is the main reason then the BD is in bigger trouble over there than people think or understand.

I guess I'm just trying to check all factors.

 

[Red Ink AUS]

OT

By the way guys, I get around a lot on the net, and I try and get everywhere observing the culture and keepers and husbandry practices.

I would just like to thank the people on this forum and the mods as I am most active on here. This is the only place I can have open the discussions and questions that I do without being flamed out of the place (something I'm sure Gina would know ). This is the most open minded forum I have ever been on and it is an absolute pleasure bouncing ideas off you guys.

So thanks again guys ;D.

 

[staylor]

Thank you for teaching us so much. I like the Francis study groups.